Jamie Roberts Posted November 22, 2006 Share #41 Posted November 22, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm still in the belief you have to cut the IR out than do a small profile shift for that Guy--thanks for doing the tests! I basically agree with your statement about cutting IR out... But the profile I've been playing with is grown beyond a small colour shift right now; all the key lab value points in the GM CC have been changed from the original. I might have been too aggressive with that (though the results are pretty balanced in the reds; I've had a couple people comment that they've got exceptional red response with the profile; must be the green deficit!) Anyway, I've been snooping around, but only had a laptop with me and didn't want to comment till I could actually see the colours back on the colour managed main machine here... I have to say the shot I prefer the most is the tweaked profile *with* the IR filter. But if I had to choose one *without* a filter, I'd take the lower saturation of the workaround profile than the supplied M8 profile. Just me, but it's easy to add back saturation; I like the balance of reds, yellows and oranges in the fixed profile (and those are balances I've really concentrated on). Anyway, I actually do believe that the "green" deficit is fixable with a better profile, but I need to wait for better tools for that. Given the holiday in the US, I hope Chromix is shipping (or has shipped) my stuff out! Once we've looked at almost 5 times the colour values in the profile (140 colour samples in the DCC), it should be even better. Ulitmately, though, there are going to be some things the profile can't do. I don't think, actually, it will ever be able to fix saturated magentas; there's just too much missing there to make sure the IR magenta maps to black. So if you're taking a picture of your son's birthday and he's wearing black poly Tshirt and a poly green flock jacket, and holding magenta balloons, well, you're going to need that IR cut filter! Oh--ONE MORE BIG THING In Mark's original test, even the WB'd original M8 profile could NOT reproduce the green color of the jacket. This is important--there was essentially no difference between the original M8 profile and the changed ones. The green--highly saturated, too--read as neutral or slightly red in the RAW file. with both profiles. So that's something to bear in mind.. I guess it's not surprising that a camera that sees some neutrals as magenta would have trouble absorbing green reflections... Hmmm. Need to sleep on that. Weird, huh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 22, 2006 Posted November 22, 2006 Hi Jamie Roberts, Take a look here Green Test . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Riley Posted November 22, 2006 Share #42 Posted November 22, 2006 Guy that image of the children looks so sharp you could cut yourself with it Riley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 22, 2006 Share #43 Posted November 22, 2006 Hi Guy Many thanks for all your efforts - and many thanks to Jamie as well - you're doing a grand job - I look forward to your green work in a few days. Something I've noticed shooting landscape is that the jpg files seem to be flooded with green (too much often) - to an extent I can never manage to find in any profile. I'd be really interested to see how your green shirt came out with the internal jpg engine. I'm not suggesting one should shoot jpg for a second, but it seems that Leica have done something odd in there. I'd try the comparison here - but I'm damned if I can find anything green which doesn't come out green! Kind Regards jono slack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 22, 2006 Share #44 Posted November 22, 2006 Guy--thanks for doing the tests! I basically agree with your statement about cutting IR out... But the profile I've been playing with is grown beyond a small colour shift right now; all the key lab value points in the GM CC have been changed from the original. I might have been too aggressive with that (though the results are pretty balanced in the reds; I've had a couple people comment that they've got exceptional red response with the profile; must be the green deficit!) Anyway, I've been snooping around, but only had a laptop with me and didn't want to comment till I could actually see the colours back on the colour managed main machine here... I have to say the shot I prefer the most is the tweaked profile *with* the IR filter. But if I had to choose one *without* a filter, I'd take the lower saturation of the workaround profile than the supplied M8 profile. Just me, but it's easy to add back saturation; I like the balance of reds, yellows and oranges in the fixed profile (and those are balances I've really concentrated on). Anyway, I actually do believe that the "green" deficit is fixable with a better profile, but I need to wait for better tools for that. Given the holiday in the US, I hope Chromix is shipping (or has shipped) my stuff out! Once we've looked at almost 5 times the colour values in the profile (140 colour samples in the DCC), it should be even better. Ulitmately, though, there are going to be some things the profile can't do. I don't think, actually, it will ever be able to fix saturated magentas; there's just too much missing there to make sure the IR magenta maps to black. So if you're taking a picture of your son's birthday and he's wearing black poly Tshirt and a poly green flock jacket, and holding magenta balloons, well, you're going to need that IR cut filter! Oh--ONE MORE BIG THING In Mark's original test, even the WB'd original M8 profile could NOT reproduce the green color of the jacket. This is important--there was essentially no difference between the original M8 profile and the changed ones. The green--highly saturated, too--read as neutral or slightly red in the RAW file. with both profiles. So that's something to bear in mind.. I guess it's not surprising that a camera that sees some neutrals as magenta would have trouble absorbing green reflections... Hmmm. Need to sleep on that. Weird, huh? Jamie a good friend of mine is also trying to profile this and first words out of his mouth is this one is a bear.I guess the reasoning is the color gamut is very high and very hard to profile. I'm not well versed in this area to really comment on profiling but he said to use a Prophoto space since it is smaller than this color space. He is still working on it but he said this is very difficult camera to do. he does this with MF all the time and has not run into a color space so large. I also liked the filter with your profile. I would keep going at it Jamie , your really getting somewhere with this and is worth a try. I don't like using filters as much as the next guy , i really don't. But right now that is what we have to get rid of this IR. I will try some more stuff with the profiles and see were it goes. Anyway i give you a lot of credit for getting your nose in there and working the issue. See what happens when I get you started on the DMR stuff , now your sunk into this Leica world. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted November 22, 2006 Share #45 Posted November 22, 2006 Guy, I am sure you have explained this elsewhere, but when you compare the un-WB and WB versions of a setup, is this for JPG or DNG/C1 and if you are doing WB by clicking on a neutral surface, what surface -- the middle square on the CC, a WhiBal, or...? Or are you putting in WB in camera by setting color termperature or AWB? That point slipped by me many posts ago. scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 22, 2006 Share #46 Posted November 22, 2006 Scott i never take the camera off AWB and same for the DMR and i only shoot raw. If i shot jpeg than i would probably change the setting to the kelvin of the light, since jpegs i can't easily cahnge the WB. Now i use the AWB becuase it really does not matter as a Raw shooter , I am going to WB in C1 anyway on every image or a group of images in that type of lighting. So the AWB is not of real importance to me per say than maybe a little annoying but the jpeg shooter is the guy or girl going to have the most problems. Now i recommend two ways to get prober white balance as a jpeg shooter. One is set the Kelvin temp in camera to a fixed temp for each lighing scene than if you have to make a change than you can set up a action in PS and run that group of images with that light. Now the second one is even better in the M8 and DMR and most cameras you can make a custom white balance with a white card that you can shoot and select the color color accordingly. This would not hurt the raw shooter as well becuase now you have a image of a white card to WB off also. Now if i shot a Macbeth chart I WB balance off the the 2nd chip in off the bottom left corner, the white square being 255, than 220 is the one I use and recommended by Greytag. Now in the field i use either the CC or a whibal card and just take a shot off that in that lighting and than WB a whole set of images from that shot. Or i find a nice Nuetral White or Grey in a scene but you have to be careful that is is nuetral in color. ry to think of yourself as a video shooter that does a WB clip to set off of. So for something like this it is a easy task just to drop it in either before or after this little shoot I did but than i can select all 50 shots and WB to that setting in C1 than I am done with it. Now of course you can't always do that than either I use a small card like this one in 3x5 size or the whil bal card or i cheat and find something that will work and a good black will also Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9778-green-test/?do=findComment&comment=100868'>More sharing options...
arne_s Posted November 22, 2006 Share #47 Posted November 22, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) @ Guy and Jamie: You both still do so good work, that I guess, it would have been best, if Leica had given you 2 free Test M8s a half year ago. I think then, the M8 problems would have never got that "big" as they are now. Even in economical thinking for Leica. I think it would be best, if you start now to make a perfect proflile for the "IR-filter-solution" with more saturated colors than in Jamie's profile and more color balance than in the generic one. Regards, Arne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 22, 2006 Share #48 Posted November 22, 2006 @ Guy and Jamie: You both still do so good work, that I guess, it would have been best, if Leica had given you 2 free Test M8s a half year ago. I think then, the M8 problems would have never got that "big" as they are now. Even in economical thinking for Leica. I think it would be best, if you start now to make a perfect proflile for the "IR-filter-solution" with more saturated colors than in Jamie's profile and more color balance than in the generic one. Regards, Arne Arne--thanks for the vote of confidence. In future, I'd happily take whatever Leica would give me early. I'm sure Guy would too I'd love to start working on a filtered profile for exactly the reasons you mention, but alas I have no filters, and I'm waiting for some better profile targets anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 22, 2006 Share #49 Posted November 22, 2006 Jamie a good friend of mine is also trying to profile this and first words out of his mouth is this one is a bear.I guess the reasoning is the color gamut is very high and very hard to profile. I'm not well versed in this area to really comment on profiling but he said to use a Prophoto space since it is smaller than this color space. He is still working on it but he said this is very difficult camera to do. he does this with MF all the time and has not run into a color space so large. I also liked the filter with your profile. I would keep going at it Jamie , your really getting somewhere with this and is worth a try. I don't like using filters as much as the next guy , i really don't. But right now that is what we have to get rid of this IR. I will try some more stuff with the profiles and see were it goes. Anyway i give you a lot of credit for getting your nose in there and working the issue. See what happens when I get you started on the DMR stuff , now your sunk into this Leica world. LOL Heh--it's true, Guy--it's been a weird ride from the Cannon through to this--but thanks again for doing all you did for me with the DMR, and for all the great tests on M8 too! The profiled space for the M8 is huge. It truly is. You don't usually see devices that profile this way, and I don't know if that's just an artifact of the camera or actually has a bearing on how it sees... but it doesn't make the profiling easy. That's why I was telling people Joseph Holmes' DCam 4 space, which is just about as large as ProPhoto but better regulated--after all, you gotta print at some point! And it is very tricky to get right. I can't really do too much more without better targets, but they're on their way. But the 'there's no green here' thing in Mark's original test, with the original super-green-saturated M8 profile is the IR smoking gun for me... and he doesn't have the right filter to show the difference... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 4, 2006 Share #50 Posted December 4, 2006 Bringing this one back for data reasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 4, 2006 Share #51 Posted December 4, 2006 Bringing this one back for data reasons Guy Do you want to borrow my Heliopan cut filter? That is when you get your replacement camera. You might find it works better than the B+W . The sucker is a 77mm (for my Canon 20Da, almost no IR filter), so you just hold it out there. Rex waiting for my M8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted December 4, 2006 Share #52 Posted December 4, 2006 in a few examples elsewhere there seems to be some shift in folliage greens too hope you find time to check that out Riley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 4, 2006 Share #53 Posted December 4, 2006 Yes as I found out a little later just lowering thekelvin temp heped a great deal about 700 kelvin. It's still off but a lot closer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted December 4, 2006 Share #54 Posted December 4, 2006 This is your first shot (no filter) followed by the same image with some very quick PS, which could easily be set up as an action. I was just curious. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/9778-green-test/?do=findComment&comment=110559'>More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 4, 2006 Share #55 Posted December 4, 2006 Brent look at the green shirt now the color is gone. Than go back and look at it with the cut filter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted December 4, 2006 Share #56 Posted December 4, 2006 Brent look at the green shirt now the color is gone. Than go back and look at it with the cut filter Guy Yah, its those subtle gray/greens that are hard to capture. You seem to have got it though with the B+W 486. But I'm confused about what color profile you have settled on.....or have you? Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 4, 2006 Share #57 Posted December 4, 2006 Rex i have not just using the M8 profile than lowering the Kelvin temp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted December 4, 2006 Share #58 Posted December 4, 2006 Brent look at the green shirt now the color is gone. Than go back and look at it with the cut filter Green? You mean aqua, don't you? I hope... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted December 4, 2006 Share #59 Posted December 4, 2006 It is a dark green there still needs to be a better profile there overall with the raw processors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted December 4, 2006 Share #60 Posted December 4, 2006 Guy Do you want to borrow my Heliopan cut filter? That is when you get your replacement camera. You might find it works better than the B+W . The sucker is a 77mm (for my Canon 20Da, almost no IR filter), so you just hold it out there. Rex waiting for my M8 Rex I am also working on profiles but have no filter at the moment. (Heliopan 77mm on order. I have a photo Equip step up deviceoriginally developed for use with a polarizer that would allow me to use thew Heliopan with all the lenses except the CV 15. I would love to borrow the fiilter if you are willing to loan it to me for a while (or sell it to me and I will sell you my Heliopan 77mm as soon as it arrives. Why don't you PM at elwood@wsnconsulting.com. tp let me know Thanks Woody Spedden Fort Collins Colorado Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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