Is the X1 just a $2,000 P&S?

[Ruhayat]

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And maybe one day we will have a D4 with an APS sensor and a 28-90 mm/ f 2.x lens...

 

Amen to that!

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[thrid]

No, the X1 is finally the DMD realized.

 

Except for the fatal flaw that the LCD on the back is almost certainly not totally real time which would make it close to impossible to nail 'puddle jumper shots', due to display lag (not shutter lag). The LCD will probably also tear and strobe, when you pan or tilt.

 

So, unless Leica has performed a minor engineering miracle the X1 will suffer from the same problem as all other cameras in it's category (EP-1, GRD-III, GF1 etc)

 

Therefore unless you are willing to use a brigthline finder and scale focusing, it's not a DMD.

Until they stick a good quality optical viewfinder in there, it's a very high-end P&S, like the GR-D III or GF1 etc.

 

Now, the brightline finder setup isn't necessarily a unworkable situation.

 

After I handled the X1 dummy at the dealer I was trying to decide if it was for me. I thought about how I shoot with my M bodies and realized that probably 80% or 90% of the time I shoot with scale focusing (focus set to 2.5 or 5 meters) or at infinity.

 

This would be totally workable with the X1 and a brightline finder.

 

Of course you need a decent amount of light to do this, so you have a useable amount of DOF. But here the APS-C sensor would work in your favor. Although the X1 has the field of view of a 35mm (in 135) it has the DOF characteristics of a 24mm (also in 135). So you are getting more DOF at the same stop as you would in 135 format and a 35mm FOV (also in 135).

 

As far as selective focusing is concerned there are a lot of times when the LCD display lag will not be an issue. At times when it is, using the camera will be no worse than if you were shooting with an LTM body. You would focus with the AF and if timing was critical could switch to the brightline finder for framing and taking the shot.

 

So, the question really is if you can live with these limitations?

 

If you already are an LTM shooter the answer is probably 'yes'.

 

As an M shooter you may have to rethink your approach a little, but people did make an awful lot of good shots with LTM cameras. David Douglas Duncan covered the entire Korean War with Leica screwmount and NIkon RF bodies. It will just take more practice, which ultimately should make you a better photographer.

 

I'm still torn between the X1 and a used M8.2. Ultimately I will have to handle a working X1 to make the decision.

It would be nice if the X1 would work out, because it would be a lot cheaper than the M8.2

[SJP]

The original question just does not make sense. the X1 is not a point and shoot as it does not have a zoom lens unlike all other P&S's

 

A fixed focal length (albeit prime) means it is essentially a "digital box camera". This places the X1 quite firmly in a completely different space than the regular P&S camera's.

 

In a way I believe they should have eliminated the live view and used a (primitive) rangefinder, a bit like the Olympus XA, but whatever it is it is not a point and shoot.

[jackart]

The original question just does not make sense. the X1 is not a point and shoot as it does not have a zoom lens unlike all other P&S's

 

A fixed focal length (albeit prime) means it is essentially a "digital box camera". This places the X1 quite firmly in a completely different space than the regular P&S camera's.

 

In a way I believe they should have eliminated the live view and used a (primitive) rangefinder, a bit like the Olympus XA, but whatever it is it is not a point and shoot.

 

You are killing me

 

Jaak

[rjsplace]

I pointed out earlier the defeciencies of the x1 to the dlux 4 and was reminded the X1 has that super size sensor. .Also comapring the DP1 large sensor cameras. I would not trade my dlux 4 for two dp1 's the x1 at this price with the lack of features offered better be nothing less then extrodinary .My D2 is only 5 mp small sensor and takes pics comparable to the great ones at 100 iso. So mp dont matter and sensor size doesnt matter what matters is they work together. Was Leica really serious a smaller then dl4 lcd with only 270,000 p with the dl4 at 400000. When do you actually get to see that great sensor at work not from behind the camera. You can watch a movie on that dl4 lcd.

I predict the dl4 will continue to legendary status and the x1 will be gone in 2 years and cost less the a used dl4 Then the x2 will have a 500,000 lcd ,interchangeable lens built in viewfinder they should asked me what the x2 needed to be. And just to finish off a camera assembled in Germany is not the same as a camera built in Germany.

[stunsworth]

The original question just does not make sense. the X1 is not a point and shoot as it does not have a zoom lens unlike all other P&S's

 

In the film days I had a Minilux with a fixed 40mm lens. There was also a virtually identical version of the Minilux with a zoom lens. Are you really saying that the Minilux with a zoom was a point and shoot camera, but the one with the fixed lens wasn't?

[SJP]

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In the film days I had a Minilux with a fixed 40mm lens. There was also a virtually identical version of the Minilux with a zoom lens. Are you really saying that the Minilux with a zoom was a point and shoot camera, but the one with the fixed lens wasn't?

No of course not. But I guess you will agree that the current P&S space is mainly occupied by small sensor, wide optical (and digital) zoom thingy's. They make fine pictures for what they are intended for but they do not have the depth of field isolation of a f/2/8, because the sensors are so small.

 

I do not know what the Minilux specs were (are?) but it would depend on that whether I would call it "just a P&S" in current terms of reference or a serious camera. The Olympus XA and the Rollei 35 were serious camera's, in fact they still are.

 

So maybe the point is that we all know the difference between a point and shoot and a "real" camera, the X1 falls in the latter category.

[nhabedi]

My D2 is only 5 mp small sensor and takes pics comparable to the great ones at 100 iso. So mp dont matter and sensor size doesnt matter what matters is they work together.

 

Sensor size matters for low-light photography. The less pixels per square millimeter, the better.

 

And it matters for depth of field.

 

If you only ever take photos in bright sunlight, if it's OK for you that basically everything is in focus from pretty close to infinity, and if you only look at your images on the screen and never make large prints, then the Digilux might be the only camera you'll ever need.

 

You shouldn't generalize from your specific needs to everyone else, though.

 

And just to finish off a camera assembled in Germany is not the same as a camera built in Germany.

 

There is no camera built in Germany anymore. Even the MP/M7/M8/M9 are "only" assembled in Germany from components built elsewhere.

[SJP]

There is no camera built in Germany anymore. Even the MP/M7/M8/M9 are "only" assembled in Germany from components built elsewhere.

In fact there is nothing built anywhere, if you include the countries that delivered the ore for the metals, the oil for the polymer, the lithium for the battery etc.

 

Made in Germany is an intellectual and not a physical statement of origin and even that may not be strictly true as they also use Snells law (NL), Fresnel equations (F), and Airy disks (UK).

[earleygallery]

So, the question really is if you can live with these limitations?

 

If you already are an LTM shooter the answer is probably 'yes'.

 

As an M shooter you may have to rethink your approach a little, but people did make an awful lot of good shots with LTM cameras.

 

Not sure I follow what you're saying - I use my lllf just the same as my M, the only difference is that the rangefinder is separate to the viewfinder.

 

I imagine most will use AF on the X1 whatever, presumably the focus point is in the centre of the frame - there is a small led on the rear of the camera which lights to confirm focus, and you will see that from the corner of your eye.

 

Scale focus could be used in bright conditions I guess but I'm not sure how well manual focussing on the LCD will work. Again it really depends on how the finished article works.

[meatboy]

So, unless Leica has performed a minor engineering miracle the X1 will suffer from the same problem as all other cameras in it's category (EP-1, GRD-III, GF1 etc)

 

Therefore unless you are willing to use a brigthline finder and scale focusing, it's not a DMD.

Until they stick a good quality optical viewfinder in there, it's a very high-end P&S, like the GR-D III or GF1 etc.

 

You can leave the GRDIII out of this group, it has snap mode for focusing and this works very well from all reports and there is no lag at all in focusing as it does not actually focus at all, its all locked before the shutter press.

 

At this stage no one can actually say that the X1 is a P&S at all yet for any issue like this, as we have no idea what tricks or features Leica may put into the firmware to deal with such DMD situations.

[thrid]

You can leave the GRDIII out of this group, it has snap mode for focusing and this works very well from all reports and there is no lag at all in focusing as it does not actually focus at all, its all locked before the shutter press.

 

I'm not talking about AF or shutter release lag.

 

I'm talking about LCD display lag. On all of these cameras, there is a very slight lag or delay between what you are seeing on the LCD and what is actually recorded when you trip the shutter. To put it in simple terms, when are looking at your subject on the LCD, what you are seeing is always a fraction of a second in the past.

 

As an example, lets say you want to take a picture of a person jumping in the air. The person jumps and watching the LCD you press the shutter release, when the person is at the apex of their trajectory. When you review the picture you notice that you have a snap of them already landed or about to land. This is due to the display lag. The LCD lags behind reality, because it does not update in realtime or at a high enough frame rate to give the impression that it is running in realtime.

 

This problem is exaggerated if you pan the camera to follow action.

 

It's not a delay related to the shutter release.

It's not a delay due to AF lag.

It's that the LCD display has a very slight display lag, making it next to impossible to make shots were timing is extremely critical.

 

At this stage no one can actually say that the X1 is a P&S at all yet for any issue like this, as we have no idea what tricks or features Leica may put into the firmware to deal with such DMD situations.

 

It's an advanced P&S. It does not have a real viewfinder.

It it had a real viewfinder it would be a compact like the Canonet G-III 17 or Contax T.

 

Firmware is not going to solve the LCD lag problem. The only thing that will solve that is cranking up the frame rate and that's hardware related.

[thrid]

Not sure I follow what you're saying - I use my lllf just the same as my M, the only difference is that the rangefinder is separate to the viewfinder.

 

You can't frame and focus at the same time with an LTM (i.e. tracking action). You need to perform one step first and then switch over (focus -> frame or frame -> focus).

[digger1914]

How come nobody wants to rake Leica over the coals for the prices of their binoculars? I find a $2,100 US street price for a pair of Leica 8 x 32s, while I can get the "same thing" from Pentax for $350.

 

(When my local store started carrying Leica cameras, they were also looking forward to carrying the Leica binoculars and scopes.)

 

I reckon this logic is like saying a Bugatti is the same as a Hyundai as they both have four wheels. All you have to do is put the two to your eyes to see they are not the "same thing".

 

Are they worth the money? They are if you are willing to pay it!

[meatboy]

It's an advanced P&S. It does not have a real viewfinder.

It it had a real viewfinder it would be a compact like the Canonet G-III 17 or Contax T.

 

Firmware is not going to solve the LCD lag problem. The only thing that will solve that is cranking up the frame rate and that's hardware related.

 

But it can have a real OVF, just slide one in!

 

I've never had my GRD II's slow refresh ever be a problem. Its a viewfinder not the final image, as long as it gives me an idea of what I will capture that is enough. It can wipe and draw away but I still get the idea - photographers need to learn to work with what they choose to use. Technology can only do so much!

 

Is there even a LCD lag problem on the X1? has anyone seen a finished one yet?

[thrid]

I give up.

 

I got a few rolls of Tri-X burning a hole in my bag.

[sdai]

The X1 does have a dedicated 36mm OVF ... no need to argue anymore.

 

[like_no_other]

The X1 does have a dedicated 36mm OVF ... no need to argue anymore.

 

 

 

That's a likeable design.

Is there any reason that the screws of the wheels are brought out of center?

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Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[ljclark]

That's a likeable design.

Is there any reason that the screws of the wheels are brought out of center?

 

I believe there is a reason.

[meatboy]

That's a likeable design.

Is there any reason that the screws of the wheels are brought out of center?

 

I'm no mechanical engineer but it could be that having them off center stops them coming undone from the constant rotation - the circular motion of rotation as you use the dial does not apply much torque on them.

 

I think they look cool like that! - adds charm!