ljclark Posted September 12, 2009 Share #1 Posted September 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Geez Louise!!!! I think some folks are struggling with the notion of an X1. 1. X1: It is what it is. We’re not going to change it physically in any way from the prototypes, and only minimally with regard to firmware. Save the huffing for the X2 and X3. Which leads me to… 2. Repeat after me: “Ex Wun”. (Gosh! Do you suppose the X1 could be considered a launch pad?) Which leads me to… 3. I don’t expect to see the X1 preserved inside one of Damien Hirst’s dead shark tanks as the last and final offering in this form factor. I’d bet that the Leica graphics department can find a “2” somewhere to stencil on the next model. Do we remember the first Ford Mustang? Do you recall all those white Mustangs with the 170 cu. in. Falcon inline six engine and the bench seat? Ford flooded the dealerships with those. Was that the first, last, and final Mustang? Let me think back 45 years…thinking…thinking… 4. “Well! It’s not the camera for me!!” O.K. Here’s the deal. If you are using one of the Panasonic cameras that has the red dot AND you are ON this forum – you’re not the target audience for the X1. If you have a Panasonic with a red dot AND ARE NOT on this forum – you are in the target audience. If you DON’T own a Panasonic with a red dot but ARE on this forum -- you may be in the target audience. See window pane. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5. “I wanna zoom!” We all want zooms. Zooms will solve world hunger AND bring about world peace. My guess is that a zoom is under consideration – perhaps under development. But I think that with the X1 Leica is telling us that they want more control over the finished product, and the resulting images and are going to start at a logical point with a versatile prime lens. To have real aperture controls (suitable for manual operation) the zoom would need to be constant aperture. How big and how expensive will that be, even with a modest 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio? Sounds like my Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 which, naked (no caps, filter, or shade), weighs over 750 grams!! (The complete X1 weighs 286 grams without battery) Leica could probably shave 200 or 250 grams off a Nikkor-like lens, but it is designed for exactly the same size sensor as the X1, not some sensor with about 1/8 the surface area. 6. “The X1 shoulda been a m4/3.” Leica should be running as fast as it can to get away from anything 4/3 – micro or original. Didn’t we get the message from the videos? Leica wants to reassert itself as a maker of the highest quality cameras and lenses. How much hope is there for a m4/3 body that will cost $3,000 US? And then the price of developing and marketing REAL Leica lenses. Would any Leica-manufactured m4/3 lens sell for less than $2,000 US? If you want m4/3 I think you can find one for sale somewhere. (And little red dots are available with the stickum already on the back.) 7. “I wanna viewfinder”. So do I. I’d be happy with the quality of the one on my GX-100. But Leica doesn’t want to get a lot of bad feedback from people who have actually purchased Leica cameras. I get the impression that Leica is not satisfied with the current EVF technology. So we wait. Maybe they can illuminate an optical finder. If they make a move to an EVF in the future, you can bet it won’t be permanently mounted, but it will probably be accommodated by raising the top deck a few millimeters. 8. “I don’t want a collapsing lens”. Fine. If that’s the deal killer, then don’t buy an X1. I think the X1’s projected market expects a collapsing lens. 9. “I wanna have aperture control on the lens barrel.” Sorry. This is the X1. Think a moment. This is a camera where the primary operating ergonomic is “arms out”. Hold the imaginary camera. Most users will hold both sides of the body (not good, but…). Now gently rock the camera back so you can see the top plate. Gosh!!! There are the aperture, shutter speed, and mode controls on two dials. I don’t shoot that way, but it wasn’t difficult for me to grasp the operating concept. (BTW…That 17-55 Nikkor doesn’t have an aperture ring on the lens body. It took some therapy, but I think I’m over the hump now. On the other hand, all my M-mount lenses do have an aperture ring, so I get the best of both worlds.) 10. “It should have interchangeable lenses.” Which $2,000 to $5,000 lenses should Leica start modifying for the X2 or X3? Or should they start the R&D from scratch? A completely new mount? And as soon as they do that, people will start whining about the crop factor and demanding a full frame X-body. Or do they start offering X-bodies with the M-mount, micro-lens APS-C sensor, no rangefinder, electronic shutter, etc.? Priced at more than a good used M8. 11. “I wanna longer (or shorter) lens.” I think that Leica’s decision to use a 35mm equivalent FOV was perfect. Is it a compromise? Sure. But it gives the photographer the greatest flexibility, especially for more casual photography. I’ve said for years that my desert island camera would be my M6 and my C/V 35mm f/2.5 Pancake II. My local dealer has ordered X1s. I think he’s pretty curious about how this turns out. So am I. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 5. “I wanna zoom!” We all want zooms. Zooms will solve world hunger AND bring about world peace. My guess is that a zoom is under consideration – perhaps under development. But I think that with the X1 Leica is telling us that they want more control over the finished product, and the resulting images and are going to start at a logical point with a versatile prime lens. To have real aperture controls (suitable for manual operation) the zoom would need to be constant aperture. How big and how expensive will that be, even with a modest 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio? Sounds like my Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 which, naked (no caps, filter, or shade), weighs over 750 grams!! (The complete X1 weighs 286 grams without battery) Leica could probably shave 200 or 250 grams off a Nikkor-like lens, but it is designed for exactly the same size sensor as the X1, not some sensor with about 1/8 the surface area. 6. “The X1 shoulda been a m4/3.” Leica should be running as fast as it can to get away from anything 4/3 – micro or original. Didn’t we get the message from the videos? Leica wants to reassert itself as a maker of the highest quality cameras and lenses. How much hope is there for a m4/3 body that will cost $3,000 US? And then the price of developing and marketing REAL Leica lenses. Would any Leica-manufactured m4/3 lens sell for less than $2,000 US? If you want m4/3 I think you can find one for sale somewhere. (And little red dots are available with the stickum already on the back.) 7. “I wanna viewfinder”. So do I. I’d be happy with the quality of the one on my GX-100. But Leica doesn’t want to get a lot of bad feedback from people who have actually purchased Leica cameras. I get the impression that Leica is not satisfied with the current EVF technology. So we wait. Maybe they can illuminate an optical finder. If they make a move to an EVF in the future, you can bet it won’t be permanently mounted, but it will probably be accommodated by raising the top deck a few millimeters. 8. “I don’t want a collapsing lens”. Fine. If that’s the deal killer, then don’t buy an X1. I think the X1’s projected market expects a collapsing lens. 9. “I wanna have aperture control on the lens barrel.” Sorry. This is the X1. Think a moment. This is a camera where the primary operating ergonomic is “arms out”. Hold the imaginary camera. Most users will hold both sides of the body (not good, but…). Now gently rock the camera back so you can see the top plate. Gosh!!! There are the aperture, shutter speed, and mode controls on two dials. I don’t shoot that way, but it wasn’t difficult for me to grasp the operating concept. (BTW…That 17-55 Nikkor doesn’t have an aperture ring on the lens body. It took some therapy, but I think I’m over the hump now. On the other hand, all my M-mount lenses do have an aperture ring, so I get the best of both worlds.) 10. “It should have interchangeable lenses.” Which $2,000 to $5,000 lenses should Leica start modifying for the X2 or X3? Or should they start the R&D from scratch? A completely new mount? And as soon as they do that, people will start whining about the crop factor and demanding a full frame X-body. Or do they start offering X-bodies with the M-mount, micro-lens APS-C sensor, no rangefinder, electronic shutter, etc.? Priced at more than a good used M8. 11. “I wanna longer (or shorter) lens.” I think that Leica’s decision to use a 35mm equivalent FOV was perfect. Is it a compromise? Sure. But it gives the photographer the greatest flexibility, especially for more casual photography. I’ve said for years that my desert island camera would be my M6 and my C/V 35mm f/2.5 Pancake II. My local dealer has ordered X1s. I think he’s pretty curious about how this turns out. So am I. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/96520-sir%E2%80%A6a-little-cheese-with-your-x1/?do=findComment&comment=1031612'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 12, 2009 Posted September 12, 2009 Hi ljclark, Take a look here Sir…A Little Cheese with your X1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
J Mitchum Posted September 12, 2009 Share #2 Posted September 12, 2009 Well, $2000 is a lot of money (for some of us) so rather than wait a couple years for the X2 it would be nice if some minor refinements could be made to the X1 prior to going into production. What I have been proposing are minor cosmetic changes (black finish or at least offer the grip to match, lose the screws on the dials) and firmware enhancements (don't disable the electronic image stabilization or additional ISO speeds). Others suggested an onscreen Depth of Field Scale like that on the D-Lux 4. Not too much to ask. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thawley Posted September 13, 2009 Share #3 Posted September 13, 2009 Well, $2000 is a lot of money (for some of us) so rather than wait a couple years for the X2 it would be nice if some minor refinements could be made to the X1 prior to going into production. What I have been proposing are minor cosmetic changes (black finish or at least offer the grip to match, lose the screws on the dials) and firmware enhancements (don't disable the electronic image stabilization or additional ISO speeds). Others suggested an onscreen Depth of Field Scale like that on the D-Lux 4. Not too much to ask. You're right... not too much to ask. Ever make an invitation list for a wedding? Is one more couple invited too much to ask? My point is, where do you stop? I'm guessing the build on the body of this camera is a hell of lot better than a Canon Rebel or it's Nikon equivalent.... in fact, I'm guessing the build quality is going to be FAR better than a lot of $1000 dollar consumer SLRS of any make. I'm also will to bet that the glass on the X1 exceeds my Canon L Series 24-105 F/4 - also at a $1000. $2000 is a lot of money. However, I think you have to look at VALUE... not just price. Considering the potential image quality, I think ther's a lot of VALUE here. JT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavGreg Posted September 13, 2009 Share #4 Posted September 13, 2009 I'm not a collector and I don't make my living with a camera anymore- that was a long time ago, but really don't see what great unfulfilled market niche this camera is designed to fill other than someone who has a problem with the fact that Digilux models were being produced by Panasonic in Japan. They could be made by Proctor & Gamble for all I care- it's what something does that matters. This looks like a really overpriced point and shoot camera that will produce pictures that in the end will not look any better than any number of cameras costing 1/4 the price... No viewfinder, no real controls, a fixed normal lens and a 2k (US$) price tag. What a deal. In my mind how a camera works and the end result are all that really matter and what Leica has birthed is another point and shoot that is really, really expensive but has that magic "Made In Germany" on it. I've bought a Hamburger Royale (Quarter Pounder) at a McDonald's on the Konigstrasse in Stuttgart more than a few times when I lived there and it didn't taste any better than the ones made anywhere else. Eventually I will have to replace my Digilux 2 and my Panasonic L1 (D3 equivalent) and have no need or desire for the M series. I doubt that I am alone and was really hoping that Leica, as a niche builder of cameras, would grace us with a decent quality, lightweight camera that wasn't priced like a Hyundai econobox. At least my 4/3s lenses can migrate with me to Olympus or wherever when the time comes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenf Posted September 13, 2009 Share #5 Posted September 13, 2009 There are a few things that I wish were different about the X1 (collapsing lens, no integral VF), but in balance I think it's a superb concept and I fully expect I'll be getting one. About the only deal-killer for me would be if there is no provision for a hood or filter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krabat Posted September 13, 2009 Share #6 Posted September 13, 2009 @ljclark: A perfect analysis. I own a Panasonic-like camera with a red dot (Digilux 2), and I am in this forum, and I will NOT buy the X1... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rower Posted September 13, 2009 Share #7 Posted September 13, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Good analysis - it isn´t true for me though. I have a DSLR system (too heavy for traveling), traveling a lot with my D-Lux4 mostly by my side. Its a great little camera, but still it doesn´t perform well in low light, no DOF for portraits - with its tiny sensor I will buy an X1 in a heartbeat. The only thing which is missing for me is - movie - but anyway I will buy it as my high-pic-quality travel companion as soon as its out. I don´t care about Zoom that much, I shoot mainly with 30mm on my DSLR and its a big stretch to call the D-Lux4 Lens a zoom... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2009 Share #8 Posted September 13, 2009 @ljclark: I am in this forum, and I will NOT buy the X1... That's how it is with the majority in most threads, all countries, regarding all cameras. It's great and very likable when someone's frank about it, though.. A friend, who was a sportsshooter back then, followed the biggest specialized German forum for sometime after the 1D was on the market. He ordered 2 bodies before it came out and six months after he got his there were FOUR other owners of that particular model posting. I followed the M8 forum for a year before getting mine and it was just like now: a lot to learn. Thank you, guys and girls! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleran Posted September 13, 2009 Share #9 Posted September 13, 2009 I own a Panasonic-like camera with a red dot (Digilux 2), and I am in this forum, and I will NOT buy the X1... We are two..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 13, 2009 Share #10 Posted September 13, 2009 DavGreg, Please explain "no real controls." The X1 has dials for adjusting the shutter speed and aperture on the top plate, and both automatic and manual focusing. Anyone who had an Olympus XA and was not bothered by its fixed f/2.8, 35 mm lens would probably enjoy the Leica X1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveleo Posted September 13, 2009 Share #11 Posted September 13, 2009 great posting .... i agree / disagree here and there, but it's well spoken. my penny on the topic: *it is NEVER a good time to buy hardware* ..... so stop waiting for "next year's model", the landscape will have changed by then (your needs will have changed too) and you will want something even better (i mean "differenter") than what happens then. there is no perfect camera .... never will be, not for $200, not $2000, not for $20,000..... i love my $1800 D2 but its TOO BIG and i wish this and that about about it, but you will never get me to part with it. the crowd wants a zoom lens ...... * i definitely DON'T *..... i want speed (f2.0) and i want it in a very small package, but i'll settle for a small f2.8 and iso1600+ with low noise. the X1 will not replace / displace the D2, dlux-4, or the M-class .... it's not a better version of any of those and it's not meant to be. i wish it was $1000 (and i wish i was 25 again ..... #$@$ i wish i was 55 again!!) but it's not (and i'm not) ..... so be it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted September 13, 2009 Share #12 Posted September 13, 2009 Anyone who had an Olympus XA and was not bothered by its fixed f/2.8, 35 mm lens would probably enjoy the Leica X1. The XA didn't have an aperture ring or focusing ring either:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hexar Posted September 13, 2009 Share #13 Posted September 13, 2009 from the short film exposed on the quesabesde site one can see it takes about 2 seconds for the lens to expand starting from the finger move of the actor to the actual expansion of the lense. What is you opinion about this lag / Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackTheRipper Posted September 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted September 13, 2009 how do you think the image quality of the x1 will compare to the m8? I'm deciding if I should get an x1 or a used m8, any opinions? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 13, 2009 Share #15 Posted September 13, 2009 giordano, I just took another look at my Olympus XA. On the front of the camera, there is a vertical slider with detents for the f stop scale, and a lever at the bottom of the lens for manually focusing using the rangefinder. The camera leaks light now, because the foam seals have deteriorated. I understand that there are people who can replace the seals. When I was a child, I had a good microscope and telescope, but the same essentially toy camera that most children had. When I was in college, one of my roommates was the editor of the campus newspaper. He let me try to focus his Nikon F2. I was amazed at how bad I was at focusing that camera, despite being quite good with the microscope and telescope. Every few months, my roommate would let me try again with the F2, and I never got it quite right. Shortly after the Olympus XA was introduced in 1979, another classmate, who had gone on to become an industrial designer, suggested over the phone that I try an Olympus XA. I went to the local photo store, aimed the camera at a telephone pole I could see out the window, and was amazed at how easy it was to focus a rangefinder quickly and accurately. I could not afford a Leica, but it never occurred to me to resent the company just because I could not afford the products. I was grateful that someone had invented a type of camera that I could focus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share #16 Posted September 14, 2009 Added... 12. "I wanna a faster lens". This issue goes back to the sensor, and the comments seem mostly coming from people who shoot rebadged cameras with tiny sensors. To make X1 lens one stop faster, the lens will need to be much larger. There's no way out of it. On the other hand, the sensor in the X1 will likely have a 2-stop advantage over Panasonic/Leica P&Ss (at least). Which means that it will behave something like an f/1.4 lens at the 35mm equivalent setting on the D-Lux 4. I shoot ISO 800 all the time with a pair of Nikon D300s (in sunlight with the lens no more than 1 stop from fully open). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPJMP Posted September 14, 2009 Share #17 Posted September 14, 2009 As a former minilux user, I find the X1's specs to be just about perfect. In fact, I've been waiting for Leica to make something very similar to the X1 for several years. The f2.8 maximum aperture is plenty fast enough when you consider 1) the higher ISOs capable with an APS-C sized sensor and 2) built-in image stabilization. FWIW, I am on this forum, don't own any Leica digital products, and am seriously considering the X1 with optical viewfinder accessory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsrockit Posted September 16, 2009 Share #18 Posted September 16, 2009 I think this camera is for those who want to pursue old school style street photography or something like that... plus, it looks like the old III series leicas in a way... I think they are cool. Back in the day I bought a used M-6 and a 50mm lens for $2000 or so. Now, I can get a brand new digicam for $2000 and feel like I'm back in the Leica game... which I miss. I hate SLRs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljclark Posted September 16, 2009 Author Share #19 Posted September 16, 2009 I think this camera is for those who want to pursue old school style street photography or something like that... plus, it looks like the old III series leicas in a way... I think they are cool. Back in the day I bought a used M-6 and a 50mm lens for $2000 or so. Now, I can get a brand new digicam for $2000 and feel like I'm back in the Leica game... which I miss. I hate SLRs. I think one of the things that will be a consideration for street-type photographers is the behavior of the lens. If you can elect to leave it extended, then the photographer should be able to quickly bring it to shooting position and grab a shot. But if it keeps retracting (and the X1 goes to sleep) that would point to a more deliberate style of shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted September 17, 2009 Share #20 Posted September 17, 2009 Hey, this is not the M9. It's the X1. And this is the new Rollei 35, a camera I loved and used extensively and with success. Oops, correction -- it's the new Leica 1 ... but digital. The old man from the Age of the Leica Standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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