rick123 Posted November 19, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 19, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi everyone, I am curious what the members of the forum are hoping the Leica announcement to say concerning the individual issues of the M8? Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 19, 2006 Posted November 19, 2006 Hi rick123, Take a look here What Is Everyone Hoping the Leica Announcement to Be?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted November 19, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 19, 2006 Hi everyone, I am curious what the members of the forum are hoping the Leica announcement to say concerning the individual issues of the M8? Rick I hope that any announcements from Leica will be light on marketing spin and instead be quite candid about the problems, the solutions and the compromises. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted November 19, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 19, 2006 Mark, I think that is more or less a given. I presume that they will confirm the problems, and confirm the solutions we have discussed here, ie. the streaking will require a hardware fix, the magenta cast will be dealt with by a combination of new colour profiles, a firmware update, and IR filters, and the green blobs will be minimised by the previous two fixes, but are just a part of life. Additionally, the white balance problems will be dealt with in one or more improvements to the firmware as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 19, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 19, 2006 My hopes are: 1) Banding is the result of a bug, not an intentional compromise. Some other effects that have been noted stem from this same bug ("reflected" images of bright lights, green blobs, vertical lines in some pictures at ISO 2500). We have identified the source. (If it is a hardware fault - bad sensor batch) We will replace all affected sensors under warranty at any time the owner prefers over the life of the warranty: turn-around time 2 weeks or less, camera must return to Solms for replacement and full re-calibration. Buyers awaiting pre-ordered cameras will have the choice of receiving their original order and returning it for the upgrade at a later date, or delaying their order until the replacement has been done in the factory. (If it is a firmware/sensor-reading fault of some kind) New firmware version 1.0x is now available for download at Leica-camera.com; All dealers will have the new firmware available on CD/DVD within one week; all cameras leaving the factory as of Nov. (date) have the new firmware installed. 2. With regarding to color changes due to IR transmission, we stand by our original engineering decision to maximize lens resolution by limiting the thickness of the internal IR filter. We still firmly believe this is the preferable approach to Leica-M digital photography, and that any additional IR filtration is best achieved through the use of external filtering. However, we will: a) provide free Leica IR-cut filters for any Leica lens purchased new and registered with Leica since Jan. 01, 2006; include a voucher for a free IR-cut filter with each new lens sold from now on (vouchers to be provided to dealers to cover current stock); c) provide vouchers for two free IR-cut filters, in any size needed to fit Leica lenses listed as compatible with 6-bit coding, with each purchase of an M8, retroactive to all M8 buyers. In addition, firmware version 1.0x is now available, as described in 1) above, that provides correction, with coded lenses, for any effects of the external IR-cut filtration, such as cyan tinges in corners. It also adds a menu item that allows the user to code in a lens ID manually, and another menu item that will allow the corrections for external IR-cut filters to be turned on or off. We also continue our existing programs that provide free coding vouchers with certain new lens purchases. A "White Paper" explaining in detail the engineering choices we made in adapting digital imaging technology to Leica-M lenses is available for download as a .pdf file at leica-camera.com 3) The internal camera color profiling used to create jpegs has been revised, and is included in firmware upgrade 1.0x, as in 1) above. In addition a new color profile for use with Capture One LE and DNG files is available for download at Leica-camera.com or from Phase One. Leica Camera GMBH apologizes for not doing a better job of explaining the engineering choices we made, with our technology partners, in adapting digital imaging technology to the compact lenses of the Leica M line. We now have a much better understanding of the technical sophistication of our customers, and will work much harder to be open about our decisions in the future. ----------------- Using Auto WB is something so alien to me that I can't guess at what Leica will say. Any issues I missed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erg Posted November 19, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 19, 2006 My hopes are: 1) Banding is the result of a bug, not an intentional compromise. Some other effects that have been noted stem from this same bug ("reflected" images of bright lights, vertical lines in some pictures at ISO 2500). We have identified the source. (If it is a hardware fault - bad sensor batch) We will replace all affected sensors under warranty at any time the owner prefers over the life of the warranty: turn-around time 2 weeks or less, camera must return to Solms for replacement and full re-calibration. (If it is a firmware/sensor-reading fault of some kind) New firmware version 1.0x is now available for download at Leica-camera.com; All dealers will have the new firmware available on CD/DVD within one week; all cameras leaving the factory as of Nov. (date) have the new firmware installed. 2. With regarding to color changes due to IR transmission, we stand by our original engineering decision to maximize lens resolution by limiting the thickness of the internal IR filter. We still firmly believe this is the preferable approach to Leica-M digital photography, and that any additional IR filtration is best achieve through the use of external filtering. However, we will: a) provide free IR-cut filters for any Leica lens purchased new and registered with Leica since Jan. 01, 2006; include a voucher for a free IR-cut filter with each new lens sold from now on (vouchers to be provided to dealers to cover current stock); c) provide two vouchers for free IR-cut filters in sizes for all Leica lenses covered by the 6-bit coding, with each purchase of an M8, retroactive to all M8 buyers. In addition, firmware version 1.0x is now available, as described in 1) above, that provides correction, with coded lenses, for any effects of the external IR-cut filtration, such as cyan tinges in corners. It also adds a menu item that allows the user to code in a lens ID manually, and another menu item that will allow the corrections for external IR-cut filters to be turned on or off. We also continue our existing programs that provide free coding vouchers with certain new lens purchases. A "White Paper" explaining in detail the engineering choices we made in adapting digital imaging technology to Leica-M lenses is available for download as a .pdf file at leica-camera.com 3) The internal camera color profiling used to create jpegs has been revised, and is included in firmware upgrade 1.0x, as in 1) above. In addition a new color profile for use with Capture One LE and DNG files is available for download at Leica-camera.com or from Phase One. ----------------- Using Auto WB is something so alien to me that I can't guess at what Leica will say. Any issues I missed? Leica should hire you as a consultant ! Could you please add that the customers (early adopters) will receive brandnew replacement M8's when bringing back their faulty M8's to the dealer ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 19, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 19, 2006 My hopes are: 1) The banding can be corrected by a new firmware version. No hardware fix is needed. 2) The IR problem requieres a filter on the lens and a new profile. At least one filter is provided for free. 3) White Balance problems will be corrected in a new firmware version. 4) SD-HC support will be included with a new firmware version. ... and a timeframe for those software corrections. I can wait a bit, but I want a the work well done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giulio Zanni Posted November 19, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 19, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) IR cut filters + firware update: I really wouldn't like to send the camera back to Germany for upgrade after having waited so long for the camera to be available and for the lenses to return from the coding. Giulio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 19, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 19, 2006 erg: I revised and extended my "press release" after you quoted it. I could see an additonal choice - full replacement camera, or repair of the original. I'd probably be sentimental about keeping my original body once my 'fingerprints' are on it, and just having it fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 19, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 19, 2006 That users buying Leica lenses for use on film cameras get a rebate for; the hefty markup to cover Leicas costs associated with animal stripes, advertising and marketing, returns bad press and slump in sales, R&D and the managements drugs they were on during r&d manufacturing marketing and damage control, and the panadol I need to wade through M8 threads in here. I hum Rule Brittania every time I load another silver bullet into the film chamber. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivek Iyer Posted November 19, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 19, 2006 That they made a mistake with the pricing and it is actually on par with that of Canon 5D? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 19, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 19, 2006 That they made a mistake with the pricing and it is actually on par with that of Canon 5D? It's about £1000 more expensive than a Canon 5D in the UK. The Canon is based on what? Say a £500 pound body, the Leica on a £2000 one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 19, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 19, 2006 Based on Mark Davison's comparisons my hope for Leica is they find *much* better lens filters than Tiffen's or they choose the only viable solution in the long run: replace the faulty filter of the sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted November 19, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 19, 2006 Any issues I missed? That's a compehensive list Adan. Some thoughts ... I believe that the IR sensitivity is an outcome of deliberate design choices, taken to give users the best possible sharpness. If this is the case, should Leica provide free IR filters? One thought is 'No' - it's up to users to decide what sort of results they want to achieve, making additional investments as necessary. When I bought my R8 and long lenses they produced terribly blurry images, until I bought a good tripod and head (and more - lens plates, stabilising arm, electronic release and winder, then a better tripod and head). It was for me to decide what sort of output I wanted from the system. Hmmm. Another thought is 'Yes' - Leica want (or need) this new product to work and at present its colour fidelity is lacking, necessitating a filter as a remedy. So perhaps a rebate program for filters would be appropriate. Buy an M8 and lenses - get some money back on filters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsteve Posted November 19, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 19, 2006 "What Is Everyone Hoping the Leica Announcement to Be? " I am hoping the announcement will be on time (Monday morning) and end all this speculation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted November 19, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 19, 2006 ...and end all this speculation. Wishful thinking Robert :-). Whatever Leica say there'll be a lot more of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grober Posted November 19, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 19, 2006 Fix the magenta problem with the least possible expense and hassle to existing M8 owners. -g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 20, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 20, 2006 What I hope it will be: 1) sensor replacement for all M8s with a new, as yet undiscussed here, IR cutoff coating that restores rich neutrals without sacrificing the astounding sharpness of the camera. The sensor replacement would also fix timing / streaking / green blobs, which are unacceptable 2) a new neutral C1 profile. 3) a manual menu for lens choice, for correcting vignette (not cyan in the corners) Hey, I can dream, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted November 20, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 20, 2006 "What Is Everyone Hoping the Leica Announcement to Be? " I am hoping the announcement will be on time (Monday morning) and end all this speculation. I know they said Monday, but did they commit to Monday this years November? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted November 20, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 20, 2006 Hi, I have read in a couple of threads on the forum that Leica have identified 5 issues that they are working on. Can someone kindly point me to where Leica has made this statement.... I do agree that Leica should hire Andy to help them through this rough patch. Cheers to all. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
j. borger Posted November 20, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 20, 2006 THat they openly stand to their designdecision concerning IR filter and fix eveything not related to this: hopefully just with fimware & software. Any adjustment on internal IR filter would make them look like complete fools in my opinion .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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