get real...

[leica007]

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Agreed, but some of us prefer to use tools that allow us to see a vision of the real world, rather than an illusion seen through a wide open f1.4 lens.

 

then your vision is a restricted and a dependent one !!

Heidegger will bemoan that.

 

ps: how does one 'see' a 'vision' ? [unless you are hallucinating !]

 

and in your explanation both 'vision' and 'illusion' are techno-dependent. philosophically and logically you need to sort that out.

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[stunsworth]

ps: how does one 'see' a 'vision' ? [unless you are hallucinating ]

 

I appreciate that English may not be your first language, but a 'vision of the world' refers to a way of seeing. A rangefinder camera allow the photographer to see the world in a similar way to that they may see when they use the naked eye (by which I don't mean an eye that's naked, again it's an turn of phrase in English), an SLR doesn't, It provides an artificial way of seeing. Now that may, or may not be important to an individual. To me it is, to you it may not.

[fursan]

Buy what makes you happy. So the M9 is not worth it to you. Hurray.

 

Join the Sony forum, but please be happy and let us enjoy the M9.

 

p.s I cannot afford it, but can share in the fun and excitement with others that can and will.

 

Regards.

 

Get real. M9 offers IQ of Sony A900 at double the price. Zeiss glass is nice too.

[earleygallery]

Buy what makes you happy. So the M9 is not worth it to you. Hurray.

 

Join the Sony forum, but please be happy and let us enjoy the M9.

 

p.s I cannot afford it, but can share in the fun and excitement with others that can and will.

 

Regards.

 

Precisely. If you think brand x is better then that's the one for you. The M9 is not a compulsory purchase after all - but I'd really really like one! I'll just continue with my FF 25MP sensor M2 for now

[tmanley]

Indeed it doesn't, but after spending the last week reviewing images form My Canon 5D - shot with Leica lenses - and my M8, I'm more than happy that the M8 photos have higher quality than the 5D, so much so that I've sold the Canon.

 

Told you so! I'm so happy today to have my faith in Leica reaffirmed. Now I just have to convince my tax guy that this is a good year to buy an M9. He says 2010 at the earliest. I may surprise him and get two! It's too hard to decide between the silver and black. Just kidding - I hope to get one before January. Compared to the Canon 5D or even 1DMII, there is no contest.

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

[leica007]

I appreciate that English may not be your first language, but a 'vision of the world' refers to a way of seeing. A rangefinder camera allow the photographer to see the world in a similar way to that they may see when they use the naked eye (by which I don't mean an eye that's naked, again it's an turn of phrase in English), an SLR doesn't, It provides an artificial way of seeing. Now that may, or may not be important to an individual. To me it is, to you it may not.

 

My Englishman, you are trying to be philosophical, but the shortcomings can be seen through.

 

"a way of seeing" is precisely what is - a way of seeing , one's orientation to the world - you don't see it. no camera can do it for you. it's called the "ontological" level of existence and hidden from us. it is revealed in what you do, what you say, what you produce. and it is not dependent on any camera, RF or anything else. Salgado uses Leica, Pentax, Canon 1dsmkiii and produces equally brilliant photos, aesthetically, philosophically and politically, speaking.

 

if your 'vision' can only be expressed via a particular camera - you have an inauthentic existence.

 

btw, another englishman - i presume - Stephen Mulhall writes good stuff on this. may be you can have a look.

 

One thing you have, and has been revealed, "the leica smugness" !

[stunsworth]

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Told you so! I'm so happy today to have my faith in Leica reaffirmed. Now I just have to convince my tax guy that this is a good year to buy an M9. He says 2010 at the earliest. I may surprise him and get two! It's too hard to decide between the silver and black. Just kidding - I hope to get one before January. Compared to the Canon 5D or even 1DMII, there is no contest.

 

I have a chance to have a play with an M9 on Sunday. I'm looking forward to opportunity. I was hoping that my dealer would have an M9 today, but that wasn't the case but he'll have a body on Sunday. I'd expected Leica to have at least one body in every dealer on the day of the launch, but for whatever the reason that didn't happen.

[stunsworth]

My Englishman, you are trying to be philosophical, but the shortcomings can be seen through. !

 

Believe me, I'm the least philosophical person you could meet. Rather than worry what makes an egg an egg I prefer to eat an omelette.

[leica007]

Believe me, I'm the least philosophical person you could meet. Rather than worry what makes an egg an egg I prefer to eat an omelette.

 

exactly, a camera is a camera. it's just that we find certain camera easier to use, are adapted to it or simply love to use and own one than any other alternative ones.

 

there's no point assigning values to it or treat it like a totem.

 

enjoy your omelette!

[tmanley]

Believe me, I'm the least philosophical person you could meet. Rather than worry what makes an egg an egg I prefer to eat an omelette.

 

I have about 10 dozen free-range fertilized chicken eggs in the refrigerator with 9 more arriving every day from my happy clucking girls and Cogburn the Rooster. I'd be glad to make you an omelet from spectacular eggs. An egg is not necessarily an egg, but a Leica is a Leica

 

Tina

 

http://www.tina.manley.com

[leica007]

So how come you guys arent on yahoo messenger or skype?

 

because the accents vary between us: a pure Englishman [perhaps with an NW accent! ] , a few Americans [with that twang] and other colonial cousins, all adding to the confusion. some of us barely manage to communicate in English, but speaking it on Skype ?... OMG!

[tmanley]

you are paying partially for a collectible mantlepiece camera, a piece of jewelery, something iconic that trades very much on its name

 

I think you are paying for years of precision engineering and development. Not jewelry or something to place in a case, but a working camera that is the best choice for anybody who understands the advantages of a rangefinder with the best lenses ever made. A rangefinder is not for everybody. As for trading on its name, if Leica deserves the reputation, that should be an advantage if only they would quit depending on celebrities to market the camera for them!

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

[noah_addis]

I'll post some images and maybe write up a more detailed opinion at another date.

 

I shot some images with the M9 today with non-updated firmware and converted in ACR, since I don't have lightroom. I shot uncompressed DNG files, though I didn't have time to shoot compressed files to see if there's a difference.

 

I've also been shooting with the M8 long enough to know what the camera can and can't do. Some quick observations:

 

The 35 'Lux Asph performs beautifully on the M9. And it's a 35 again. No problems with backfocus or focusing wide open. I don't think I took one out of focus picture out of around 40 test images.

 

As for high-iso performance, I'm very picky. I use the M8 only up to 320 for most uses. I would not shoot at 640 for most of my clients, though I know some have used it with good results. But as I said, I'm picky.

 

On the M9 the results at ISO 640 are beautiful. I'd use it in any situation where I wanted more DOF or a faster shutter, I'd say it's as good or better than the M8 at 320. At 800 the files are still amazing, there may be some visible noise (as there is with the M8 at 320) but it's extremely minimal.

 

At 1600 there is more noise, but I'd still say the files are very good. I would NOT hesitate to use 1600 for any of my work even for picky clients.

 

ISO 2500 is a bit noisy. I'd use it in a pinch but I'd treat it like I do 640 on the M8. Due to the extra resolution it may well turn out nice prints. I'd have to do more testing to determine if I could use it for picky clients. For, say, a wedding where the customers aren't pixel-peeping editors, it may well work fine.

 

I think the camera has at least two stops advantage over the M8. My statements above assume correct exposure.

 

I also shot with the D700 (with zeiss primes) for a while. I'd say the noise reduction at very high speeds (3200 and up) is nice but it smears fine detail and the files look more processed and artificial. Also the color can get funky. The fastest I really liked was 1600.

 

Not sure if this will get addressed with firmware, but the camera was a bit slower than I had hoped in terms of writing files, zooming in to check focus, etc. That's really my only complaint, and it's minor since the camera is more than fast enough for my work. But again the Leica rep told me multiple times that the firmware was not updated and not to judge performance or image quality.

 

Since the M9 is capable of good 1600, combined with the extremely high low-iso quality and the first-rate leica lenses, I'd say the M9 is a true option for professional use where rangefinders are appropriate.

 

And on top of that, the files (finished tiff 8-bit) come in just above 50MB, which is what I give to my agency. It will be a HUGE time saver not to have to deal with two sets of files (one interpolated in C1 for the agency and one native resolution for my archive).

[leica007]

 

Not sure if this will get addressed with firmware, but the camera was a bit slower than I had hoped in terms of writing files, zooming in to check focus, etc. That's really my only complaint, and it's minor since the camera is more than fast enough for my work. But again the Leica rep told me multiple times that the firmware was not updated and not to judge performance or image quality.

 

thanks for sharing your opinion. would love to see some samples. let us also know the results when you make some prints.

 

i thought M9 will be faster than M8 , given that it has better [assuming] DUAL processors.

is it the file size which it finds difficult to deal with or is it related to the SD card's writing speed? [Perhaps, Maestro could have solved this problem. ]

[erl]

I you pass 10,000 people on the street 9,999 will say "oh,you borrowed your grandpa's camera?". But the one will say "gee, it's a 8000$ Leica with the 6,000$ lens!".

That's the real snobbery in the best Oscar Wilde tradition. "I have simple tastes. I like the best".

So do I, better yet for half price.

 

C'mon nugat! That is gross exaggeration. Out of your quote of 10,000 people I reckon you would be lucky to get one to comment at all. When trimmed back substantially to a realistic probable statistic, I could be inclined to agree with the tenor of your observation.

 

As for what you refer to as the "snob" effect. I wonder why you comment on it as though there is some problem with it. Peridically, I have been referred to as a snob and other similar terms, usually because of the car I drive, the camera I use, the watch I wear, or the fact that I choose to go to opera and ballet rather than slush in a pub with mates or go to the footy (aussie rules of course ).

 

The one thing I can do (have done) is methodically demonstrate why I choose all those pursuits as opposed to other "less snobbish" choices. I actually have a very efficient "blind" test that I subject myself to and must pass before committing to any of them. None of my critics have ever been able to explain why the alternatives would be a better option (albeit cheaper) for me. You see, all these things are personal choices and not open to criticism from others. So yes, I may be a snob by your judgment and I enjoy it. I hope the fact does not impede you from enjoying your preferences as I believe we are all entitled to enjoy what we can find in life. If we are not enjoying it, there is a good chance we only have ourselves to blame for the decisions we made.

[tmanley]

Enjoy your 5D and perhaps even the 5D II, if that's what you are content using. Others hear the beat of a different drummer and seek other photographic solutions, perhaps specifically shooting rangefinders.

 

Read it again. He sold the 5D after comparing the files to an M8. My 5D went to my daughter who would really have preferred a Leica, but she'll have to wait awhile for that.

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

[JSU]

Agreed!

 

Read it again. He sold the 5D after comparing the files to an M8. My 5D went to my daughter who would really have preferred a Leica, but she'll have to wait awhile for that.

 

Tina

 

Tina Manley

[GlennB]

not too many in this world use different tools [i.e. cameras] for different purposes.

people tend to get all rounders. doesn't the present market share of RF vs. SLR tell you that?

point is : can leica become a prominent and serious player with M9 ? I sincerely want it to be so. but I won't allow my emotional attachment to Leica to colour my rational judgement on acquiring one.

Leica007,

I'm sure I'm not the average photographer, rangefinder or otherwise, but I shoot a couple of older Canon 1D Mk2s for work (newspaper), AND I shoot my M8 for pleasure.

Had/have too much Leica glass from film days to want to waste them (and Leica knows that there's a lot of older Leica users who feel this way) and I really like the change from heavy/big SLR to light/compact Rangefinder. I really don't think Leica believes the M9 is gonna be the average photographer's choice. That's why they also make the point and shoot models. No way is any pro level (or even prosumer level) digital rangefinder going to outsell the current mass produced Pro or Prosumer SLRs .

 

Is the M9 for everyone ? NO. Nor was the Epson RD-1 or the M8, M8.2 .

Do I want one ? YES. But I don't have the $$ right now .

 

Anyway, everyone IS entitled to their opinion.

 

Glenn

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[charlesphoto99]

I'll post some images and maybe write up a more detailed opinion at another date.

 

I shot some images with the M9 today with non-updated firmware and converted in ACR, since I don't have lightroom. I shot uncompressed DNG files, though I didn't have time to shoot compressed files to see if there's a difference.

 

I've also been shooting with the M8 long enough to know what the camera can and can't do. Some quick observations:

 

The 35 'Lux Asph performs beautifully on the M9. And it's a 35 again. No problems with backfocus or focusing wide open. I don't think I took one out of focus picture out of around 40 test images.

 

As for high-iso performance, I'm very picky. I use the M8 only up to 320 for most uses. I would not shoot at 640 for most of my clients, though I know some have used it with good results. But as I said, I'm picky.

 

On the M9 the results at ISO 640 are beautiful. I'd use it in any situation where I wanted more DOF or a faster shutter, I'd say it's as good or better than the M8 at 320. At 800 the files are still amazing, there may be some visible noise (as there is with the M8 at 320) but it's extremely minimal.

 

At 1600 there is more noise, but I'd still say the files are very good. I would NOT hesitate to use 1600 for any of my work even for picky clients.

 

ISO 2500 is a bit noisy. I'd use it in a pinch but I'd treat it like I do 640 on the M8. Due to the extra resolution it may well turn out nice prints. I'd have to do more testing to determine if I could use it for picky clients. For, say, a wedding where the customers aren't pixel-peeping editors, it may well work fine.

 

I think the camera has at least two stops advantage over the M8. My statements above assume correct exposure.

 

I also shot with the D700 (with zeiss primes) for a while. I'd say the noise reduction at very high speeds (3200 and up) is nice but it smears fine detail and the files look more processed and artificial. Also the color can get funky. The fastest I really liked was 1600.

 

Not sure if this will get addressed with firmware, but the camera was a bit slower than I had hoped in terms of writing files, zooming in to check focus, etc. That's really my only complaint, and it's minor since the camera is more than fast enough for my work. But again the Leica rep told me multiple times that the firmware was not updated and not to judge performance or image quality.

 

Since the M9 is capable of good 1600, combined with the extremely high low-iso quality and the first-rate leica lenses, I'd say the M9 is a true option for professional use where rangefinders are appropriate.

 

And on top of that, the files (finished tiff 8-bit) come in just above 50MB, which is what I give to my agency. It will be a HUGE time saver not to have to deal with two sets of files (one interpolated in C1 for the agency and one native resolution for my archive).

 

This was my take as well today from the files I took away from the M9. Esp for editorial style photography the noise is perfectly fine. Like I said elsewhere it's very grain like. My worry is that the 320 and below is almost too clean. Will have to resort to Alien Skin I think. But the real thing is full frame. 35 is a 35 again. A great thing....

[Jamie Roberts]

Indeed it doesn't, but after spending the last week reviewing images form My Canon 5D - shot with Leica lenses - and my M8, I'm more than happy that the M8 photos have higher quality than the 5D, so much so that I've sold the Canon.

 

I went exactly the same route, shot after shot comparisons...