Riley Posted September 30, 2009 Share #121 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I dont think so Fuji who have apparently got out of APSC SLRs Fuji who had to use Nikon shell OVF and AF system in their own SLRs, S2 S3 S5 this would be because they were unable to produce their own why would they suddenly be the supplier for these CKD Leica kits? sounds pretty doubtful to me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Hi Riley, Take a look here Where is X1 made?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted September 30, 2009 Share #122 Posted September 30, 2009 Fuji who have apparently got out of APSC SLRsFuji who had to use Nikon shell OVF and AF system in their own SLRs, S2 S3 S5 this would be because they were unable to produce their own It is not like Fujifilm couldn’t build a DSLR if they wanted to, just that it would be a tough call to establish their own system next to the existing ones. Still, there is nothing to suggest a Fujifilm connection. And the X1’s autofocus shows so many similarities to a Panasonic AF that I would be very surprised should Panasonic turn out not to be involved (not to mention Occam’s Razor). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 30, 2009 Share #123 Posted September 30, 2009 So the Sanyo/Panasonic hypothesis is the more probable... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted September 30, 2009 Share #124 Posted September 30, 2009 So the Sanyo/Panasonic hypothesis is the more probable... Sanyo? Did I miss something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted September 30, 2009 Share #125 Posted September 30, 2009 Sanyo are the contract builder for Panasonic, owned by Panny as well they manufacture Olympus and Nikon compacts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted September 30, 2009 Share #126 Posted September 30, 2009 Those rectangular buttons bother me as well. I don't know of another manufacturer with rectangular buttons (so far), so it may be that Leica has chosen them as a design statement, or a way to differentiate their product from others. Either way, the buttons are here to stay. But if the camera works like a Leica, I think I can live with the buttons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceflynn Posted September 30, 2009 Share #127 Posted September 30, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Quad FM4 tuner has rectangular buttons with slightly rounded corners: http://www.audiocircuit.com/index.php?c=QUA&m=FM-4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 30, 2009 Share #128 Posted September 30, 2009 But if the camera works like a Leica, I think I can live with the buttons. I think it doesn't work like a M camera, in terms of handling. The problem is not the form of the buttons, or the painted (not engraved) inscriptions, with a dim greyish painting. The problem is the whole interface at the back of the camera. - Two wheels. Why? You need only one. - Double function buttons. Like those of the cross inside the main wheel. They are directional buttons and modal buttons (MF/AF, Exp compensation, Timer and Flash). The central button is "menu/sel". There are another "play" button at the left. Is not clear how to turn on the screen for menu operation, for live view operation, for review operation... Some of these functions are spreaded on different buttons but no clear ordering exists. Too many buttons don't give you more or faster control. - The large buttons at the left have strange inscriptions (Delete/phocus), are useless (for a direct modal button, like White Balance), or are in a different ordering than in the M cameras. I don't say the X1's interface is worse than other compact cameras. I am saying it is similar to the interface of typical compact cameras. Nothing special. Nothing more intuitive, faster, logical, comfortable... The only plus is those two wheels on the top for exposure time and aperture control (but in the pre-production model the feeling of them aren't like the exposure time wheel of a M camera). Leica hasn't transposed the M8/M9 interface, or the (much better) S2 interface, to the X1. Three cameras, three philosophies in handling, three manufacturers, three firmwares... Leica hasn't a consistent approach to interface, operation and handling. The M8/M9's comes from the DMR (Imacon), the S2's comes from Phase One backs, and the X1s comes from typical japanese compact and reflex cameras. The menus structures and looking are different for the three cameras. I think the best interface is that of the S2. Those large buttons can be adapted for several functions (directional buttons, modal buttons for direct operation, and menu navigation), depending on what are you doing. The M8/M9 interface isn't bad at all, but it is unnecessarily complex (too many input points, this is, buttons and wheel). Anyway, it works. In contrast, the X1 is a mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 1, 2009 Share #129 Posted October 1, 2009 Double function buttons. Like those of the cross inside the main wheel. They are directional buttons and modal buttons (MF/AF, Exp compensation, Timer and Flash). It is a common design concept and usually works well. The arrow buttons are always modal so outside any mode they are useless and can do double duty as selectors for different modes. I have only wondered why an exposure compensation button was necessary when there is another dial that could be used for modeless exposure compensation. The central button is "menu/sel". There are another "play" button at the left. Is not clear how to turn on the screen for menu operation, for live view operation, for review operation... I haven’t had a chance to handle an X1 so far, but I would assume that (as is customary for compact digicams) the LCD is used for live view by default; “Play”, “Menu/Set”, and “Info” would switch to review, menu selection, and info displays, respectively. While you are within the menu display, “Menu/Set” would act as the selection button. Would these assumptions be wrong? The large buttons at the left have strange inscriptions (Delete/phocus) In review mode, “Delete/Focus” will obviously be the delete button; in record mode it might activate the AF in MF mode – I have no idea. are useless (for a direct modal button, like White Balance) Why would a dedicated WB button be useless? Three cameras, three philosophies in handling, three manufacturers, three firmwares... Leica hasn't a consistent approach to interface, operation and handling. The M8/M9's comes from the DMR (Imacon), the S2's comes from Phase One backs, and the X1s comes from typical japanese compact and reflex cameras. The menus structures and looking are different for the three cameras. I trust that eventually, Leica will have a unified internal architecture for all their cameras, but they are not there yet. And they cannot wait developing new products until they are. Anyway, there is at least one unifying design element, namely the big wheel surrounding the four-way controller buttons. The DMR had it first (upon Leica’s insistence; Imacon hated it), then the M8, M9, and S2. But the X1 will be the first Leica to utilize the central position as a button – thankfully, after that position was wasted on all the other models. And the buttons on the left aren’t so much different from the ones on the M9: Where the M9 has Play, Delete, ISO, Info, and Set, the X1 has Play, Delete/Focus, WB, ISO, and Info. The Set button has (thankfully) moved to the center of the four-way controller where it arguably belongs, and there is a dedicated WB button; otherwise the layout is identical. I wouldn’t mind at all if Leica had chosen the exact same layout for the M9 (which, alas, still has its lone Menu button to the right of the display and an unused spot at the center of the four-way controller). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 1, 2009 Share #130 Posted October 1, 2009 Rubén-- I haven't seen either the X1 or the S2, so I have to yield to your experience. It took a while for me to get used to the locations of some of the D-Lux 4 menus, and I'm still annoyed by the use of the "Set" button on the M8. But I think Michael's response to your comments makes sense. Leica is juggling several suppliers while they try to enter the upper-middle part of the market with the X1. I'm not sure how much of the interface they can control at this juncture. I'm looking forward to seeing the X1, and I certainly hope the controls feel better than those on the D-Lux 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 1, 2009 Share #131 Posted October 1, 2009 The S2 has not a big wheel with surrounding four-way controller buttons. It is a radical departure from the typical interface of a digital camera. Some people may find the X1's layout logical and practical. I don't. It is difficult to handle, memorize and operating the camera fast and intuitively. It is far from the M8/M9's structure and ordering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 1, 2009 Share #132 Posted October 1, 2009 The S2 has not a big wheel with surrounding four-way controller buttons. It is a radical departure from the typical interface of a digital camera. Yep, sorry, you are right; the S2 doesn’t belong in that list. Still, Leica seems to love that wheel. However, my main point remains: The interface layout of the X1, the rectangular button shape notwithstanding, is rather similar to that of the M models and in some respects an improvement on their design. The placement of the Menu and Set button(s) is arguably more logical and a dedicated WB button is an improvement, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted October 1, 2009 Share #133 Posted October 1, 2009 I've always suspected it's Samsung ... Howard. The closest thing to the X1 is the soon-to-be-announced Samsung NX10 which also sports a 1.5x 12MP CMOS. Since Andreas has clarified that the final assembly was deifnitely done in Solms, so I guess it's really the parts sourced from many other places. Makes no difference to me as long as it works. That's two of us sdai. I distinctly recall the word Samsung being uttered in Hessenpark in July. It wasn't Stefan Daniel. I wish I had a recording of that entire weekend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 1, 2009 Share #134 Posted October 1, 2009 However, my main point remains: The interface layout of the X1, the rectangular button shape notwithstanding, is rather similar to that of the M models and in some respects an improvement on their design. The placement of the Menu and Set button(s) is arguably more logical and a dedicated WB button is an improvement, too. I never select a WB value, so a permanent button for it doesn't makes sense (to me). In RAW shooting mode it hasn't much sense anyway. The "Set" button is an improvement, I agree, but a separate button for a call to the menu is a better solution (to me). I try to figure out how to get a functional organization from the S2s interface for a M camera. It is not easy, due to the minimalistic approach. The M8/M9 cameras have many buttons at the back, but the general ordering and design works. The S2s interface has only 5 buttons (4 around the screen, 1 for AF lock) and a wheel. The best solution is some contextual values for each button in review (1) and menu modes (2) (someting in the corners of the screen would show what are the particular functions of the buttons in the current operation mode), and programmable functions in shooting mode. One problem is how to zoom on a reviewed image and move. The R-D1 is quite problematic. The M8/M9 cross buttons make this easy. In the S2 you can use the top left (UP), top right (RIGHT), bottom right (DOWN) and bottom left (LEFT) buttons. Some kind of spiral layout. You need a wheel, and I would use the classic rewind knob for this, keeping the back of the camera more simple, robust and clean, specially at the right side, where the hand holds the camera. Leica has to do some research here, and fix some DNA for all their cameras. Anyway, the X1 has another problem: the manual focus. The current system based on a magnified image is fine for static subjects, but not for street or snapshot pictures. The AF may be too slow, so some pre-focus based on hyperfocal distances (recalculated for APS-C and digital images) is necessary. Two possibilities, easily doable in firmware: DoF marks on the "distance bar" you get on the LCD screen in manual focus mode; and instantaneous jump to the hyperfocal distance for the selected aperture pressing a button (so a button for this is necessary). . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 1, 2009 Share #135 Posted October 1, 2009 I think you're forgetting who the X1 is aimed at and why the feature set is as it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 1, 2009 Share #136 Posted October 1, 2009 I think you're forgetting who the X1 is aimed at and why the feature set is as it is. Who the X1 is aimed at? The typical user of compact cameras? They have plenty of cheaper alternatives. This camera is aimed at the brand sensitive customer (differentiation based on brand), or at the photographer connoisseur of the Leica tradition looking for a compact camera in that tradition (differentiation based on handling, philosophy, principles). That differentiation justifies the also different (higher) price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackTheRipper Posted October 2, 2009 Share #137 Posted October 2, 2009 you're very anti x1 rosuna everyone raves about the d-lux 4... the sensor in the x1 will be a lot bigger, the lens is a real leica lens it sounds like it's gonna be a great camera... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 2, 2009 Share #138 Posted October 2, 2009 you're very anti x1 rosuna Well, I don't like it very much in its current form. It is like a typical compact in too many ways. I would have preferred something more similar to a M in concept, more radical, not so mass oriented. It cannot be a mass product in any case, due to price. Anyway, I did try to propose a few practical (doable by software) and unobtrusive suggestions. everyone raves about the d-lux 4... There is a price difference, and a size difference. The target market has to be different as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
murfman Posted October 2, 2009 Share #139 Posted October 2, 2009 Its aimed right at someone like me. My Leica's go IIIc>Minilux>? I like the Leica glass lo these many years, but a new M being a bridge to far. Even with a Canon digital p&s, a Nikon dSLR kit, a panorama 35mm p&s, underwater 35mm, Polaroids I can and cant use (film packs in the freeze), etc, etc; I'm still highly interested in the X1. From a film Leica thats fully mechanical, to a film Leica thats electromechanical, to one that is digital, each with a view from 35 to 50 mm, that will be a fun set of tools to photograph with. And that I think is the big difference. When I want a photographic tool, when I want to write with light, contemplate, lie in wait for the decisive moment, an informal portrait-- I reach for the one of the Leicas. Small, quiet, unassuming. When I want a memcorder tool, when I want to capture events, in crazy lighting, large amounts of people, and record what happened, for myself and others to remember, I reach for the dSLR. So I'm expecting/hoping the X1 will be the digital I reach for when I want a photographic tool that is digital, and has the Leica glass that I love the look of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted October 2, 2009 Share #140 Posted October 2, 2009 Rubén, I've never seen the appeal of the Ricoh GR-Ds and the other 'tween cameras, but apparently a lot of people like the concept. Maybe Leica's target audience is partly that crowd. So far, those cameras have all gotten good reviews for image quality but very poor marks for functionality. Maybe Leica is working with one of those manufacturers to clear up the bits that don't work right. When I first started applying myself to photography, I would work with a single lens for a day or a week, just to get the feel of seeing like that lens. Maybe the X1 could also be approached as a way to learn, or a way to refresh the juices. I'll be curious to see who the early adopters are when it comes to market. (Similarly, in The Online Photographer: The Leica as Teacher, Mike Johnston recently recommended that the best way to learn photography is to use nothing but a single lens on a film M camera for a year.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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