ravinj Posted October 15, 2010 Share #281 Posted October 15, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) I want that Chinese workers can finally evolve their working standards, get freedom, get rights, get unions. I've said everything, I'll stop here. Everybody who doesn't understand has a hard-time to follow my bad English or doesn't WANT to understand. Well, my friend it is good that you stopped here. You and your fellow Germans need to solve YOUR own problems first before lecturing the Chinese. Don't get me started on the problems that Germans and Europeans need to attend to first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 15, 2010 Posted October 15, 2010 Hi ravinj, Take a look here Where is X1 made?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted October 15, 2010 Share #282 Posted October 15, 2010 Well, my friend it is good that you stopped here. You and your fellow Germans need to solve YOUR own problems first before lecturing the Chinese. Don't get me started on the problems that Germans and Europeans need to attend to first. Just out of interest where are you from? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nhabedi Posted October 15, 2010 Share #283 Posted October 15, 2010 Wiggi, I am interested in that quote. May you be more specific (issue, article)? http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/145083-ein-paar-sachen-die-ich-noch.html brand eins, issue 10/2010. The article is "Update für eine Ikone". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted October 15, 2010 Share #284 Posted October 15, 2010 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-kundenforum/145083-ein-paar-sachen-die-ich-noch.html brand eins, issue 10/2010. The article is "Update für eine Ikone". Oh, thank you very much! That is the same article in which the number of M9 produced comes from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiILX1 Posted October 15, 2010 Share #285 Posted October 15, 2010 Flawed logic I'm afraid. You might be buying 'German' but what if it's an M9 or X1 which will almost certainly have Chinese components within them? I'd actually say it's impossible to take such a stance nowadays unless you avoid buying any typical electrical consumer items, and only have clothes tailor made for you from wool off the sheep in your back garden. Larger western companies are quite aware of consumer ethics and are probably doing more than anyone to raise the workers standards and rights in developing markets, just by being there. I fail to see my flawed logic. Your argument is separate from my post. I didn't say the X1 was 100% German and indeed you are right the globalized nature of the production process today makes it difficult to find products not tied to Chinese labor. My point was just simply that I enjoy buying German, supporting that method of production and quality of life. Regardless of your point, there are not as many Germans involved in the production of many digital cameras besides Leica X1s, M9s, and S2s. Yes my camera has Chinese components like any other, but atleast I supported a German owned company and an assembly workforce in Germany with likely 40 paid vacation days, pensions, etc etc etc... What other contemporary digital camera can you say that about? Which also addresses some other peoples points- no matter how much of this camera is from elsewhere, it's 100% more "made in Germany" than any other camera right now. Cheers to not outsourcing the assembly process! And as the only ones who aren't, I say they have some leeway for defining the phrase "made in Germany," and that as is it still meaningful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 15, 2010 Share #286 Posted October 15, 2010 Even the QC of Leica in Solms appears compromised somehow, judging from posts I see about M9/X1 with quality issues as serious as being "Dead on arrival"? I do not think we can equate "Made in germany" with reverence like before, and please do not get me wrong, I still like Leica and my X1, just not caught up with where it is made. But the german design is sound though, and I like that very much. Like VW, Audi, etc even though made in Mexico, Portugal, or parts from China I see it as the way things are going... I do think the Germans take too many holidays, way too many for the good of the economy haha so on that point I disagree with you, but respectfully... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted October 15, 2010 Share #287 Posted October 15, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Since when has "Made in Germany" conferred reliability? Even my Mercedes 240d could not be called "trouble free" compared to a plain old Camry or Accord of similar vintage. Lets not confuse style with dependability. If you are buying Leica's because you think they are more reliable you will be disappointed, they have always required owners who put up with more work, adjustments and issues. That doesn't mean they aren't great....I'd rather have something really cool that sometimes breaks than a camera i'd rather not use that lasts forever! Leica themselves will tell you that it doesn't matter who's hands are making a product, it's the design and specifications that matter. (They say so in the factory tour, right after they tell you the M cameras are mostly made in Portugal). Here's evidence that quality and style do not always go together: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 15, 2010 Share #288 Posted October 15, 2010 I fail to see my flawed logic. Your argument is separate from my post. I didn't say the X1 was 100% German and indeed you are right the globalized nature of the production process today makes it difficult to find products not tied to Chinese labor. My point was just simply that I enjoy buying German, supporting that method of production and quality of life. Regardless of your point, there are not as many Germans involved in the production of many digital cameras besides Leica X1s, M9s, and S2s. Yes my camera has Chinese components like any other, but atleast I supported a German owned company and an assembly workforce in Germany with likely 40 paid vacation days, pensions, etc etc etc... What other contemporary digital camera can you say that about? Which also addresses some other peoples points- no matter how much of this camera is from elsewhere, it's 100% more "made in Germany" than any other camera right now. Cheers to not outsourcing the assembly process! And as the only ones who aren't, I say they have some leeway for defining the phrase "made in Germany," and that as is it still meaningful. Flawed logic because you wrote, and I quote, "When I buy German I know I'm paying for a quality of life- a lot of the money gets to the employees. I like that. I like to think of whimsical Germans on holiday every time I press the shutter ;-). When I buy American I feel as though I merely (at most) help the employee keep their job, but the money is lost for the profit of a few who don't need it (ie how many of us really think the musician or the bank clerk or the supermarket cashier get their fair share). When I buy Chinese I feel as though I am actually supporting an oppression of the Chinese worker- strangely ironic for the most socialist state of the three." When you buy German, yes you are helping 'whimsical Germans' to go on holiday and put their beach towels on all of the sun loungers but you didn't state - and therefore I didn't know if you appreciated the fact - that you are also supporting a lot of 'underpaid' Chinese workers too (as well as Indian, Korean, Taiwanese etc. workers as well in most cases). When you throw out your trash you're supporting the exploitation of African workers, many of them children, who spend their lives sifting through our rubbish to pick out items for recycling. What do you propose to do to avoid that happening? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorismichielsen Posted October 15, 2010 Share #289 Posted October 15, 2010 My point was just simply that I enjoy buying German, supporting that method of production and quality of life. Regardless of your point, there are not as many Germans involved in the production of many digital cameras besides Leica X1s, M9s, and S2s. Yes my camera has Chinese components like any other, but atleast I supported a German owned company and an assembly workforce in Germany with likely 40 paid vacation days, pensions, etc etc etc... I do not understand your reasoning here. Why do the camera has Chinese components (not that I am arguing against this fact)? IMO because (1) they have the same quality as the ones produced in Europe (or even better) and (2) Leica can buy them cheaper and so the profit for the company (owners and shareholders) will be higher. The fact the Leica is assembling the camera in Germany has much more to do with reasons of marketing (the "German quality" still convince many buyers) then altruism. Moreover, the fact that workforce in Germany has social protection and holiday is institutionalized by law, and not a company's decision. It is of course the decision of Leica to operate in Germany, like some Chinese investors who are interested to produce things in Europe (thank God), but those decisions will IMO not be influence by the existence of European social and social protection policies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
h00ligan Posted October 15, 2010 Share #290 Posted October 15, 2010 This argument reminds me of how not too long ago buying German was considered an awful offense... for multiple reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest badbob Posted October 16, 2010 Share #291 Posted October 16, 2010 Paraphrasing Ricardo Montalban: The camera for the man who knows who he is. Rich Corinthian faux leatherette finish. Approach street, landscape and portrait with confidence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted October 17, 2010 Share #292 Posted October 17, 2010 But the german design is sound though, and I like that very much. Like VW, Audi, etc even though made in Mexico, Portugal, or parts from China I see it as the way things are going... My German car (BMW) is designed such that when a simple relay wears out (which was undersized to begin with) it also causes the door lock controllers to burn out. This relay can't be replaced on its own but necessitates the replacement of the "general module" ( a computer) along with the door lock controllers of course. Total cost of $1800 so that my doors can be unlocked again. This car only has 35,000 miles on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
h00ligan Posted October 17, 2010 Share #293 Posted October 17, 2010 I just sold my m3 for that reason. I figure at this point is rather allocate that kind of money elsewhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravinj Posted October 17, 2010 Share #294 Posted October 17, 2010 Enough of heaping praise on "German" manufacturing and European goodness where workers are unionized, socialism rules and it is ok for punks to laze in the sun in Berlin (when it shines), sticking needles in their veins and have a good life at taxpayer's expense. X1 is a good camera, takes great pictures, is easy to use and that's it. You can't extrapolate this to warm and fuzzy feelings about buying from Europe where everything is apparently Utopian (it is not - teenage girls soliciting customers in Hamburg? Where is the German pride?). So stop worrying about "exploitation" of Chinese workers. X1 is not the epitome of manufacturing quality (peeling skin, anyone?). Get over it and move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 17, 2010 Share #295 Posted October 17, 2010 Enough of heaping praise on "German" manufacturing and European goodness where workers are unionized, socialism rules and it is ok for punks to laze in the sun in Berlin (when it shines), sticking needles in their veins and have a good life at taxpayer's expense I'm sure if we knew where you came from we'd be able to make similar snide comments about your country. Nowhere is perfect, but if I don't think many Europeans would be prepared to give up their hard fought for rights and live in an Asian totalitarian country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 17, 2010 Share #296 Posted October 17, 2010 Enough of heaping praise on "German" manufacturing and European goodness where workers are unionized, socialism rules and it is ok for punks to laze in the sun in Berlin (when it shines), sticking needles in their veins and have a good life at taxpayer's expense. . Consider your own country bashed. I am sure there are things happening there every righteous person must be ashamed of, wherever that might be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 17, 2010 Share #297 Posted October 17, 2010 I'm sure if we knew where you came from we'd be able to make similar snide comments about your country. Nowhere is perfect, but if I don't think many Europeans would be prepared to give up their hard fought for rights and live in an Asian totalitarian country. I think Asia is fairly large for you to judge generally that all are totalitarian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 17, 2010 Share #298 Posted October 17, 2010 I think Asia is fairly large for you to judge generally that all are totalitarian. I thought we were all talking about the PRC specifically? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 17, 2010 Share #299 Posted October 17, 2010 I think Asia is fairly large for you to judge generally that all are totalitarian. I never said they were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 17, 2010 Share #300 Posted October 17, 2010 I thought we were all talking about the PRC specifically? I never said they were. Maybe I misunderstood from "Asian totalitarian" then, in which case Myanmar, Cambodia, etc,etc more so than PRC comes to mind. If you just said PRC it would then be crystal clear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.