Where is X1 made?

[phancj]

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Relax guys.

 

I am Chinese but born in Taiwan, and travelled all over the world often. I think if you look at the "sweatshops" in China, they produce atrocious stuff meant for the low-end market where the sole determinant is price.

 

Foxconn is owned by a Taiwanese manufacturing in China. Companies like Toyota, Hewlett packard, Sony, in fact just about most businesses wanting to still survive in this market, do their manufacturing in China to enjoy the lower cost and bigger bulk of workers who are trained competently to do what they are supposed to do, unlike small sweatshops.. But what most do not know is these companies bring with them their own standards and they do impose QC standards in their own plant as well as subcontractors. Of course some still slip thru QC the same with M9s we hear about, so it can happen anywhere.

 

There is a big difference between buying from a Chinese manufacturer, and soliciting an OEM, and another is to actually set up a factory in China. Look at Foxconn they have staff swimming pool, clean and nice cafeteria, recreational facilities, nice dorms, etc,etc yet staff felt shortchanged, the same with strikes in Europe, etc demanding higher wages. These are relatively skilled workers we are talking about.

 

You buy what you like, and leave what you dont. Quit complaining. Especially when you have not bought it yet, whatever product.

[jsrockit]

Ah, so it seems I am not the only one who would buy an X1 made in China...

[phancj]

"That's unfair. Their labour costs might be cheap by Western standards, but the quality of the products that they produce is as good as anywhere, if that is what is required. Cheap nasty goods can be and are made anywhere in the world if that is what the purchaser wants. Even the United States."

 

It's not unfair, it's cheap BECAUSE of the low standards. Do you think the only difference between "Made in China" and "Made in Germany" is nationality of the people?

Most "Made in Germany" is done by highly-trained workers with a dual education/apprenticeship (technical college + practice - I'm sorry, I'm not sure which English vocabulary fits best as an description) for at least 3 years. I've had several additional trainings (new safety standards, new technologies...) over the last years which cost my employer several tenthousand €! I work 35h/week and have 30 days vacation and could save enough money for a M8.

A Chinese worker (even those working for Foxconn, making Apple-products with high-wage technology) isn't trained for years, works over 60h/week with less than 10 days vacation, doesn't even work in an environment fulfilling basic German standards in ergonomics and safety and is paid next to nothing, not even able to afford an Ipod!

HOW is comparing and judging this slave-labour to craftmenship unfair!?

It's madness and we have the responsibility to stop it by no longer buying this crap!

 

Maybe thats the problem, Chinese are far more hard-working than some other European nations, with less pay, long working hours and little vacation working on products we love. Whats your problem?

 

I'd rather have hardworking and conscientious people working on my camera, not some snotty spoilt brat thats too highly paid and lazy and fat from all that vacations and complaining about somewhere else being too competitive??

 

And what makes you think the Chinese are uneducated? I am not from mainland China I know education is the highest priority in mainland China so much so that many send their children overseas. There is no lacking of PhDs and top notch calibre and mind you these same educated souls are contributing so much to the economy.

 

To me you are clearly a racist and I despise your post. It shows how shallow you are, wake up my friend, is there a compelling reason why the Chinese dominant nations in Asia are doing well? I suspect it is due to improving education, pure grit and persistence plus willingness to learn, on top of that I like to think some intelligence. Contrast that to the current state of some European economies, I rest my case.

 

You are clearly a case of sour grapes! C'mon, did you lose your job to some more competent factory in China? I add: We should support where the workers are serious about working on our gadget, not the next vacation. I buy whatever works well with no regards to point of manufacture, in any case final point of assembly is where it is legally made, so thats that. The components could be from wherever who cares??!!

[earleygallery]

Eventually most of our jobs in the west will have been outsourced to China, then the Chinese will keep pressing for higher wages and better terms and conditions, as we in the west sink further into depression.

 

At some point the Chinese businesses (who have by then bought out the companies who outsourced there) will seek cheaper labour costs and will decide to outsource some production to places like the Midlands in the UK where there will be derelict factory sites which the government will offer generous grants to foreign investors to redevelop, and of course a large amount of unemployed people ready to train up and earn minimum wage.

 

People will then complain about their Leicas not being made in China and using cheap untrained labour from the EU........

[phancj]

Eventually most of our jobs in the west will have been outsourced to China, then the Chinese will keep pressing for higher wages and better terms and conditions, as we in the west sink further into depression.

 

At some point the Chinese businesses (who have by then bought out the companies who outsourced there) will seek cheaper labour costs and will decide to outsource some production to places like the Midlands in the UK where there will be derelict factory sites which the government will offer generous grants to foreign investors to redevelop, and of course a large amount of unemployed people ready to train up and earn minimum wage.

 

People will then complain about their Leicas not being made in China and using cheap untrained labour from the EU........

 

It's the circle of life??

[phancj]

Maybe thats the problem, Chinese are far more hard-working than some other European nations, with less pay, long working hours and little vacation working on products we love. Whats your problem?

 

I'd rather have hardworking and conscientious people working on my camera, not some snotty spoilt brat thats too highly paid and lazy and fat from all that vacations and complaining about somewhere else being too competitive??

 

And what makes you think the Chinese are uneducated? I am not from mainland China I know education is the highest priority in mainland China so much so that many send their children overseas. There is no lacking of PhDs and top notch calibre and mind you these same educated souls are contributing so much to the economy.

 

To me you are clearly a racist and I despise your post. It shows how shallow you are, wake up my friend, is there a compelling reason why the Chinese dominant nations in Asia are doing well? I suspect it is due to improving education, pure grit and persistence plus willingness to learn, on top of that I like to think some intelligence. Contrast that to the current state of some European economies, I rest my case.

 

You are clearly a case of sour grapes! C'mon, did you lose your job to some more competent factory in China? I add: We should support where the workers are serious about working on our gadget, not the next vacation. I buy whatever works well with no regards to point of manufacture, in any case final point of assembly is where it is legally made, so thats that. The components could be from wherever who cares??!!

 

Sorry guys, felt I shouldnt have posted this one. Was in a heated work dispute this afternoon and was in a real foul mood. But I still mean what I said about the fact that it doesnt matter where the thing is made, as long as its good. I hope the moderators can help with deleting this post. Totally done in anger, and uncalled for. Guess I shouldnt visit this forum to relax if pissed??

 

And yes, though relatively educated, I do work 12 hours a day, seven days a week and take a vacation rarely. But I aint complaining, and make a decent living. I sometimes do envy life in the West (having worked there periodically for a while), more rest and recreation as we tend to work much more...

[phancj]

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The X1 Challenge is finally up, sorry I was distracted by the M9 and bogged by work.

 

Prizes as follows:

 

Winner: One mystery Grand Prize and a choice of another Keyring/Mobile Charm(with accessory for attachment to iPhone)

 

1st and 2nd Runner-Up: Choice of Keyring/Mobile Charm(with accessory for attachment to iPhone)

 

All prizes include laser engraved winning shot plus challenge winner details including name, country, details, whatever you want on the other side!

 

Dates to be announced real soon. Get your X1 ready...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jsrockit]

Please make sure you create a thread letting us know about the contest and where we should be posting entries, etc.

[phancj]

JS, get your photos ready, there'll be a thread set up for posting.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[ravinj]

I am not from mainland China I know education is the highest priority in mainland China so much so that many send their children overseas. There is no lacking of PhDs and top notch calibre and mind you these same educated souls are contributing so much to the economy

 

Agree. Whoever thinks that Chinese are uneducated is an idiot. The entrance exam of Beijing University will make most Western PhD holders wet their pants.

 

I manage a team of highly skilled professionals in one of the most competitive industries. And here is a (true) story:

 

Last summer I hired a young Chinese kid, 19 years old for summer internship. He was studying here in the USA on a full scholarship (he had a perfect SAT score): 2nd year of a 4 year computer science course. I gave him a piece of code to write that I thought would take him 2 weeks to complete. On the third day, he came to me and said he is done. I checked it out - it was all perfect. I then gave him a full project to work on. What he did in 6 weeks would have taken an experienced programmer 4 months to complete. I was completely blown away by the quality of his work and his dedication.

 

Face it - this is the new China. Hard working, hungry for knowledge and ready to take on the world. Europe is old story, stuck in the past.

 

For the record - I am not Chinese.

[Guest badbob]

Well, my Apple iPods and iPad are made in China, and I've never had a battery give up on me, even after a couple years of use. The rest of the product is good as well.

 

Contrast that with consistently bad batteries from Sony, HP, Motorola, and HTC, and their "genuine" replacements too, and I'm sold on China as long as the mfr. assures a quality product. I should also mention Panasonic for consistently good quality batteries as well, and the cameras themselves are pretty good too.

[phancj]

Well, I got an experience with German engineers that cracks me up every time I think of it:

 

I was finding a one-stop solutions provider for laser cutting equipment, so I contacted thew local agent for one of the top German laser integration specialists company. They took over a month to produce samples and the samples were all s%$t so bad considering a renowned company. The local agent felt like a total idiot and told me reason was it was summer holidays in germany so the engineers were off very long, but he couldnt explain the bad samples.

 

So I am back to buying German Laser sources (tubes) but having local programmers and hardware experts to integrate the galvo and other components with American parts. But having said that german laser tubes are the best, so I still use them, but I'll not trust any German integration companies in future, I think they are overpaid and too many holidays.

 

Here when we ask for anything people try to deliver the best ASAP.

[ChiILX1]

Ok have to chime in now...

 

When I buy German I know I'm paying for a quality of life- a lot of the money gets to the employees. I like that. I like to think of whimsical Germans on holiday every time I press the shutter ;-). When I buy American I feel as though I merely (at most) help the employee keep their job, but the money is lost for the profit of a few who don't need it (ie how many of us really think the musician or the bank clerk or the supermarket cashier get their fair share). When I buy Chinese I feel as though I am actually supporting an oppression of the Chinese worker- strangely ironic for the most socialist state of the three.

 

A friend of mine is the president of one of the world's largest and most respected companies in engineering, and it's headquartered in Germany (and his brother used to be the head of Leica digital division). Their engineers need to be accurate to two microns or else all the world's plane engines would malfunction. The humorous part he always loves to tell is that their largest factory is in Bavaria, where beer is legally food. The glasses are huge (up to 1 liter) and you are legally allowed to have one for breakfast and one for lunch. Beer vending machines in the break room... you get the picture. And Bavarians will never budge on their worker's rights and privileges like this (and others).

 

Don't get me wrong-- they're unrivaled in respect worldwide for their engineering accuracy and the most trusted name out there. If anything fails on your next flight it won't be their parts in the engines.

 

But the joke is the (impossible) idea of having to look a widow or widower in the eye while they are morning the death of their partner / family, and say "I'm sorry I know it's horrible and we really are sorry for your loss... but you must understand that we have this law in Bavaria...."

[earleygallery]

When I buy German I know I'm paying for a quality of life- a lot of the money gets to the employees. I like that. I like to think of whimsical Germans on holiday every time I press the shutter ;-). When I buy American I feel as though I merely (at most) help the employee keep their job, but the money is lost for the profit of a few who don't need it (ie how many of us really think the musician or the bank clerk or the supermarket cashier get their fair share). When I buy Chinese I feel as though I am actually supporting an oppression of the Chinese worker- strangely ironic for the most socialist state of the three.

 

Flawed logic I'm afraid. You might be buying 'German' but what if it's an M9 or X1 which will almost certainly have Chinese components within them?

 

I'd actually say it's impossible to take such a stance nowadays unless you avoid buying any typical electrical consumer items, and only have clothes tailor made for you from wool off the sheep in your back garden.

 

Larger western companies are quite aware of consumer ethics and are probably doing more than anyone to raise the workers standards and rights in developing markets, just by being there.

[georg]

"Chinese are far more hard-working than some other European nations, with less pay, long working hours and little vacation working on products we love. Whats your problem?

...

To me you are clearly a racist and I despise your post."

 

I want that Chinese workers can finally evolve their working standards, get freedom, get rights, get unions. You like that they're working for you so hard and barely get anything because of their nationality and you call ME the racist?

Thousands of them die every year due to insufficient safety standards and millions are sick due to being exposed to hazardous environment. As long as they are just cheap slaves to us and our companies who manufacture an Ipod or shoes there for a few bucks less (to increase shareholder value, because 10% yield isn't enough) and sell it to us (and the Chinese upper-class) for 1000$ their situation won't improve. We were once in a similar situation but since a few great historical figures were willing to share their increased productivity with the workforce by enhancing standards they were able to actually sell more cars ("cars don't buy cars") and other consumer goods to millions instead of just selling to a small upper-class. Now we lower standards again by off-shoring work!

They don't work this hard (and don't mix up working long with actual productivity) because they want to, they work this way because they would die otherwise! China has barely any social system nor health care. It's like Europe in the 19th century with a decadent upper-class and a suffering working class. They could evolve beyond that but not this way, not by being the cheap alternative in global sourcing.

 

"And what makes you think the Chinese are uneducated?"

 

The workers at the assembly and production lines are. They are not trained (like the people working in Solms) for years. I am not talking about students and future engineers from universities. They are semi-skilled at best. So they barely can solve any problems themselves. They cannot repair or maintain complex machines.

Don't believe me? One simple example: Cherry-keyboards have been manufactured in Germany, the letters were laser-engraved. Then they off-shored the work to Chinese suppliers. The laser engraving machine was too complex so they switched back to the old "printing" technology - regression instead of progress - great! Mercedes has automated, high-precision door assembly by laser interferometry - but only in Germany - not even in the US! Because for Mercedes, the workers in Alabama are just a cheap alternative with lower wages and less restrictions - they're not worthy to train the same way the people are trained in Stuttgart - they're replaced by even cheaper and more desperate Mexican workers (once Alabama is no longer will to pay with tax money for the investments) the next decade anyway...

Do you think this behaviour makes me proud as a German? German companies creating second-class workforces again? It fills me with anger, it makes me sick! Especially we Germans should know better!

 

Even we Germans are already affected. People in Eastern Germany work 5h/week more and get about 30% less money - to strengthen investments into their weak economy. 20 Years later, many German companies replaced West-German facilities with East-German facilities (payed with tax money) - it didn't help anybody, because no work was created but just moved (just like outsourcing to China doesn't create new jobs). AMD has a fab in Eastern Germany. Why? Because they can pay them less than the US-Americans with old contracts and the German government was willing to pay millions for the fab. That's "made in Germany" the wrong way.

After 1990 cheap workers from Eastern Europe were used to work in meat-processing. There were no machines that could handle such complex tasks. The Danish were not allowed to use cheap labour from Eastern Europe due to regulations. So they developed (on world-leading mechanical engineering from Germany) robots, in-line measuring systems and other complex devices to automate meat-processing. Now they're world-leading in this technology (with lot's high-quality jobs) while German companies buy their technology! They evolved - we relied on cheap labour.

 

Workers from China, Eastern Europe - they're all welcome to participate in worldwide competition. But not by lowering the standards and fill our pockets on their backs - that's a race to the bottom nobody will win.

 

"Eventually most of our jobs in the west will have been outsourced to China, then the Chinese will keep pressing for higher wages and better terms and conditions, as we in the west sink further into depression."

 

And since we wouldn't be able to afford overpriced Chinese stuff (also with western brands) the Chinese economy will collapse as well. Make cheap and sell expensive doesn't work. It's short-sighted.

 

I've said everything, I'll stop here. Everybody who doesn't understand has a hard-time to follow my bad English or doesn't WANT to understand.

[Guest MartinMann]

......in Heaven

[phancj]

"Chinese are far more hard-working than some other European nations, with less pay, long working hours and little vacation working on products we love. Whats your problem?

...

To me you are clearly a racist and I despise your post."

 

I want that Chinese workers can finally evolve their working standards, get freedom, get rights, get unions. You like that they're working for you so hard and barely get anything because of their nationality and you call ME the racist?

Thousands of them die every year due to insufficient safety standards and millions are sick due to being exposed to hazardous environment. As long as they are just cheap slaves to us and our companies who manufacture an Ipod or shoes there for a few bucks less (to increase shareholder value, because 10% yield isn't enough) and sell it to us (and the Chinese upper-class) for 1000$ their situation won't improve. We were once in a similar situation but since a few great historical figures were willing to share their increased productivity with the workforce by enhancing standards they were able to actually sell more cars ("cars don't buy cars") and other consumer goods to millions instead of just selling to a small upper-class. Now we lower standards again by off-shoring work!

They don't work this hard (and don't mix up working long with actual productivity) because they want to, they work this way because they would die otherwise! China has barely any social system nor health care. It's like Europe in the 19th century with a decadent upper-class and a suffering working class. They could evolve beyond that but not this way, not by being the cheap alternative in global sourcing.

 

"And what makes you think the Chinese are uneducated?"

 

The workers at the assembly and production lines are. They are not trained (like the people working in Solms) for years. I am not talking about students and future engineers from universities. They are semi-skilled at best. So they barely can solve any problems themselves. They cannot repair or maintain complex machines.

Don't believe me? One simple example: Cherry-keyboards have been manufactured in Germany, the letters were laser-engraved. Then they off-shored the work to Chinese suppliers. The laser engraving machine was too complex so they switched back to the old "printing" technology - regression instead of progress - great! Mercedes has automated, high-precision door assembly by laser interferometry - but only in Germany - not even in the US! Because for Mercedes, the workers in Alabama are just a cheap alternative with lower wages and less restrictions - they're not worthy to train the same way the people are trained in Stuttgart - they're replaced by even cheaper and more desperate Mexican workers (once Alabama is no longer will to pay with tax money for the investments) the next decade anyway...

Do you think this behaviour makes me proud as a German? German companies creating second-class workforces again? It fills me with anger, it makes me sick! Especially we Germans should know better!

 

Even we Germans are already affected. People in Eastern Germany work 5h/week more and get about 30% less money - to strengthen investments into their weak economy. 20 Years later, many German companies replaced West-German facilities with East-German facilities (payed with tax money) - it didn't help anybody, because no work was created but just moved (just like outsourcing to China doesn't create new jobs). AMD has a fab in Eastern Germany. Why? Because they can pay them less than the US-Americans with old contracts and the German government was willing to pay millions for the fab. That's "made in Germany" the wrong way.

After 1990 cheap workers from Eastern Europe were used to work in meat-processing. There were no machines that could handle such complex tasks. The Danish were not allowed to use cheap labour from Eastern Europe due to regulations. So they developed (on world-leading mechanical engineering from Germany) robots, in-line measuring systems and other complex devices to automate meat-processing. Now they're world-leading in this technology (with lot's high-quality jobs) while German companies buy their technology! They evolved - we relied on cheap labour.

 

Workers from China, Eastern Europe - they're all welcome to participate in worldwide competition. But not by lowering the standards and fill our pockets on their backs - that's a race to the bottom nobody will win.

 

"Eventually most of our jobs in the west will have been outsourced to China, then the Chinese will keep pressing for higher wages and better terms and conditions, as we in the west sink further into depression."

 

And since we wouldn't be able to afford overpriced Chinese stuff (also with western brands) the Chinese economy will collapse as well. Make cheap and sell expensive doesn't work. It's short-sighted.

 

I've said everything, I'll stop here. Everybody who doesn't understand has a hard-time to follow my bad English or doesn't WANT to understand.

 

Read the news for a change my friend. Chinese wages are rising exponentially in no small part due to the workers' strikes for example in Toyota, Foxconn (Apple's OEM), etc,etc. They can stand up for themselves, and it is happening in a big way. Wages can be double or 3-fold in many case, and still fast rising...

 

Also, the standard of living is not high in China, wages go a long way. You can find a meal (a decent one) for US$0.50 still, try finding that elsewhere.

 

Nothing shortsighted about it, the Chinese are fast developing and working hard to keep full employment, contrast that to Europe where people are asking for wages and a lifestyle that may not be sustainable, stupid in my opinion. If the economy turns sour just take the pay cut and loss of privileges and soldier on I think it is the better option, instead of being out of work.

 

End of the day, it is clear which strategy seems to be working, as Europe continues to struggle with its ailing economy, while Asia, workers with their hard work and lower wages continue to flourish in this economic climate.

 

And mind you, I am one who works seven days a week, even though I draw a relatively good salary.

[rosuna]

Like the Sanyoleica!

 

Sanyo was bought by Panasonic, a few months ago.

 

Sanyo is a manufacturer of many compact cameras for different brands, Panasonic included.

[rosuna]

The magazine Brandeins says, the main parts of the X1 are manufctured by Sanyo.

 

Wiggi, I am interested in that quote. May you be more specific (issue, article)?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[rosuna]

"Chinese are far more hard-working than some other European nations, with less pay, long working hours and little vacation working on products we love. Whats your problem?

...

To me you are clearly a racist and I despise your post."

 

I want that Chinese workers can finally evolve their working standards, get freedom, get rights, get unions. You like that they're working for you so hard and barely get anything because of their nationality and you call ME the racist?

Thousands of them die every year due to insufficient safety standards and millions are sick due to being exposed to hazardous environment. As long as they are just cheap slaves to us and our companies who manufacture an Ipod or shoes there for a few bucks less (to increase shareholder value, because 10% yield isn't enough) and sell it to us (and the Chinese upper-class) for 1000$ their situation won't improve. We were once in a similar situation but since a few great historical figures were willing to share their increased productivity with the workforce by enhancing standards they were able to actually sell more cars ("cars don't buy cars") and other consumer goods to millions instead of just selling to a small upper-class. Now we lower standards again by off-shoring work!

They don't work this hard (and don't mix up working long with actual productivity) because they want to, they work this way because they would die otherwise! China has barely any social system nor health care. It's like Europe in the 19th century with a decadent upper-class and a suffering working class. They could evolve beyond that but not this way, not by being the cheap alternative in global sourcing.

 

"And what makes you think the Chinese are uneducated?"

 

The workers at the assembly and production lines are. They are not trained (like the people working in Solms) for years. I am not talking about students and future engineers from universities. They are semi-skilled at best. So they barely can solve any problems themselves. They cannot repair or maintain complex machines.

Don't believe me? One simple example: Cherry-keyboards have been manufactured in Germany, the letters were laser-engraved. Then they off-shored the work to Chinese suppliers. The laser engraving machine was too complex so they switched back to the old "printing" technology - regression instead of progress - great! Mercedes has automated, high-precision door assembly by laser interferometry - but only in Germany - not even in the US! Because for Mercedes, the workers in Alabama are just a cheap alternative with lower wages and less restrictions - they're not worthy to train the same way the people are trained in Stuttgart - they're replaced by even cheaper and more desperate Mexican workers (once Alabama is no longer will to pay with tax money for the investments) the next decade anyway...

Do you think this behaviour makes me proud as a German? German companies creating second-class workforces again? It fills me with anger, it makes me sick! Especially we Germans should know better!

 

Even we Germans are already affected. People in Eastern Germany work 5h/week more and get about 30% less money - to strengthen investments into their weak economy. 20 Years later, many German companies replaced West-German facilities with East-German facilities (payed with tax money) - it didn't help anybody, because no work was created but just moved (just like outsourcing to China doesn't create new jobs). AMD has a fab in Eastern Germany. Why? Because they can pay them less than the US-Americans with old contracts and the German government was willing to pay millions for the fab. That's "made in Germany" the wrong way.

After 1990 cheap workers from Eastern Europe were used to work in meat-processing. There were no machines that could handle such complex tasks. The Danish were not allowed to use cheap labour from Eastern Europe due to regulations. So they developed (on world-leading mechanical engineering from Germany) robots, in-line measuring systems and other complex devices to automate meat-processing. Now they're world-leading in this technology (with lot's high-quality jobs) while German companies buy their technology! They evolved - we relied on cheap labour.

 

Workers from China, Eastern Europe - they're all welcome to participate in worldwide competition. But not by lowering the standards and fill our pockets on their backs - that's a race to the bottom nobody will win.

 

"Eventually most of our jobs in the west will have been outsourced to China, then the Chinese will keep pressing for higher wages and better terms and conditions, as we in the west sink further into depression."

 

And since we wouldn't be able to afford overpriced Chinese stuff (also with western brands) the Chinese economy will collapse as well. Make cheap and sell expensive doesn't work. It's short-sighted.

 

I've said everything, I'll stop here. Everybody who doesn't understand has a hard-time to follow my bad English or doesn't WANT to understand.

 

Georg, it find your text very interesting.

 

Most people is focused in this financial-induced crisis, but it is just waves in the surface.

 

There is a deep revolution running, with long term effects. The impulse comes from China and India. It is a massive workforce of skilled people, and change in the demand of resources and a change in the vectors of technical progress.

 

China produces technology at this moment. And it is state of the art technology in many fields.

 

United States has a flexible and competitive economy, but Europe will find serious, really serious problems in the long term.

 

This is not a zero sum game, of course, but it doesn't not imply you can be inefficient and do not pay a price for that.