Seeking advise for my first Leica camera, please help...

[siulonbow]

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... as I would want to use it in my Asia trip in mid-Sept.

 

Hi,

 

I was offered by my uncle with 2 Leica lens (a 35mm and a 90mm). I am currently looking to puchase a M8 or M8.2. I would like to know if there are any different in between the 8 and the 8.2? I know that it has a “S” mode, is it very useful for a beginner? Also, should I wait for a M9 since I heard that the M8 came out 3 years ago, which mean the technology is 3 years late.

 

I also have a question with the rangefinder? I have used other SLR (viewfinder), is the rangefinder harder to use than a viewfinder? What is the exact different? I know that one view object from the lens where the other doesn’t use the lens. Would it make be harder to take pictures of an object that is not viewing through the lens? Thanks

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[lars_bergquist]

Those were many and big questions. A RF camera is not inherently more difficult to use than a manually focused SLR, but the technique is different. You will need a week or two of diligent famiiarisation to use it efficiently, but you may find the experience delightful. I am not going to explain rangefinder use here, it's in the camera manual. But when you have learned it, it is fast and precise and superior to even a manually focused SLR with an all-matte screen -- let alone autofocus, especially in low light. There are only two things I want to emphasise:

 

A Leica M is a hands-on camera. You take the picture, not the camera. You must understand the basics: What f-stops (apertures) do, and what shutter speeds do, and how both together decide exposure. But a M will teach you fast. Especially a M8 with its instant feedback via the back screen.

 

With a SLR you see something that interests you. You raise the camera to your eye and start hunting for a picture, working your zoom lens. Then you decide where the focus should be, or let the camera do that. And then you press the shutter release. --- With a RF camera you know already when you see the subject how the lens you have mounted 'sees' it (that comes with practice). You know already what in the subject you are going to put maximum focus on. You raise the camera, focus, adjust the composition, and shoot. It is an entirely different workflow.

 

So, (1) I would not advise you to go on an extended voyage with your newly acquired M. Learn to know it first. (2) Keep off 'S mode' if it is a M8.2. It is a failed attempt to change the M into a point-and-shoot camera, which it cannot and should not be. If you use it, you will learn NOTHING and you could just as well, or better, carry a cheap compact. And, (3) for God's sake, accept the offer and do show your gratitude!

 

The old man from the Age of the M2

[footnoteblog]

Wow; well said, lars.

 

especially:

You take the picture, not the camera. You must understand the basics: What f-stops (apertures) do, and what shutter speeds do, and how both together decide exposure.

 

You also must know how to shoot RAW (who the hell shoots JPG? *ducks*) and process it.

[lxlim]

Others like Lars will chime in with great advice.

 

I offer this, if you are wearing glasses get them well corrected if it is necessary. There is no AF to rescue you I had astigmatism to trip me on my rangefinder journey.

[lars_bergquist]

You also must know how to shoot RAW (who the hell shoots JPG? *ducks*) and process it.

That depends what you are going to use the pictures for. The JPG quality of the M8 is high and fully sufficient for a 20x30cm print where your own personal focusing error and camera shake is the limiting factor. And as I have pointed out repeatedly here, if you can print to that size you can print to any size, because any sane person wanting to look at the print (not a pedant seaching for 'artifacts' with a magnifier) will view it from a progressively larger distance, corresponding roughly to the diagonal of the print format. Years of field observations in galleries and art museums have led me to that conclusion.

 

Let us keep a sense of perspective. I used to do street photography on Tri-X, soaked it in Rodinal and printed on 40x50 paper with a condenser enlarger. You should have seen the 'artifacts'!

 

The old man from the Age of Film

[Marquinius]

I'm the proud owner of an M8 and am very happy with it. BUT ... taking a long step back, I'm not sure I would have bought it with what I now know about the D Lux 4. Yes, you can start out with the 35 and 90mm from your uncle, but that is, in my humble opinion, working towards a solution in stead of first looking at what the "problem" is. Are you sure you want to invest in all the tralala of a rangefinder camera? Manual focus? Carrying that second lens?

 

The M8 (or the M8.2 at that) is a very fine piece of equipment, no doubt. And handy, easy to take with you, non obstrusive, etc. On the other hand, the D Lux 4 is all that at less than 20% total cost. No swapping of lenses, nothing. And you can shoot in DNG and Jpeg both.

 

All this from an M8 owner

[jaapv]

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I would say the previous posters have it just right. If one comes from an SLR, especially an automated one, using a rangefinder camera requires a learning curve. By all means start using an M8, M8.2 or whatever, but do not take it on an extended trip within a few weeks, at least not as the main camera. Marco is right. Get a D-Lux4 and set it to Jpeg max and enjoy.

[footnoteblog]

That depends what you are going to use the pictures for. The JPG quality of the M8 is high and fully sufficient for a 20x30cm print where your own personal focusing error and camera shake is the limiting factor. And as I have pointed out repeatedly here, if you can print to that size you can print to any size, because any sane person wanting to look at the print (not a pedant seaching for 'artifacts' with a magnifier) will view it from a progressively larger distance, corresponding roughly to the diagonal of the print format. Years of field observations in galleries and art museums have led me to that conclusion.

 

Let us keep a sense of perspective. I used to do street photography on Tri-X, soaked it in Rodinal and printed on 40x50 paper with a condenser enlarger. You should have seen the 'artifacts'!

 

The old man from the Age of Film

 

Yeah, JPGs are fine, but:

 

I'd rather shoot a negative than a locked-in chrome. I'd rather go back and change RAW/DNG settings (with lots more gamut and tonal range than a JPG), and be able to do what I want. There are fundamental corrections and compressions you can't undo with a JPG. Never. Impossible.

 

That is all on that.

 

Why not just get a Panny?

http://gizmodo.com/5316483/panasonic-lumix-lx3-vs-leica-d+lux-4-or-how-to-charge-300-more-for-the-same-camera

[Guest BigSplash]

Those were many and big questions. A RF camera is not inherently more difficult to use than a manually focused SLR, but the technique is different. You will need a week or two of diligent famiiarisation to use it efficiently, but you may find the experience delightful. I am not going to explain rangefinder use here, it's in the camera manual. But when you have learned it, it is fast and precise and superior to even a manually focused SLR with an all-matte screen -- let alone autofocus, especially in low light. There are only two things I want to emphasise:

 

A Leica M is a hands-on camera. You take the picture, not the camera. You must understand the basics: What f-stops (apertures) do, and what shutter speeds do, and how both together decide exposure. But a M will teach you fast. Especially a M8 with its instant feedback via the back screen.

 

With a SLR you see something that interests you. You raise the camera to your eye and start hunting for a picture, working your zoom lens. Then you decide where the focus should be, or let the camera do that. And then you press the shutter release. --- With a RF camera you know already when you see the subject how the lens you have mounted 'sees' it (that comes with practice). You know already what in the subject you are going to put maximum focus on. You raise the camera, focus, adjust the composition, and shoot. It is an entirely different workflow.

 

So, (1) I would not advise you to go on an extended voyage with your newly acquired M. Learn to know it first. (2) Keep off 'S mode' if it is a M8.2. It is a failed attempt to change the M into a point-and-shoot camera, which it cannot and should not be. If you use it, you will learn NOTHING and you could just as well, or better, carry a cheap compact. And, (3) for God's sake, accept the offer and do show your gratitude!

 

The old man from the Age of the M2

 

I agree with the above especially the bit about "You take the picture, not the camera" .

 

I also think it wise to practise as much as possible with each lens before going on the trip and since you are with a digital "M" you will see the results very quickly after each day's shooting using a PC and a decent monitor to review your work. I would recoomend to take the 90mm "only" for a day and shoot portraits at different apertures keeping the camera on Auto....then do the same after having taken a light reading at a critical part of the scene (store this by slightly pressing the shutter release button) ...then repeat using manual shutter speed selection. In my view you will soon get the feel for what the camera does and wll learn how to drive it.

 

You are going to be looking for pin prick focus on the eyeball on a portrait and lack of focus (wide aperture) in the background or well focussed background (small aperture)....coupled with a high contrats and bright image.

 

If you take each image and use photoshop to auto correct the levels it is a good way to learn if you have set the exposure correctly!

 

Now do all of the above a second time with the 35mm making sure that you have something in the close foreground to give the wide angle effect (even though 35mm is actually 50mm on the M8 or M8.2).

 

Given the price difference I would go for the M8.....

 

 

Good luck

[earleygallery]

The 35 and 90, which lenses are they specifically? If you are making a purchase of an M8 on the basis of having two lenses for it I would consider how they will work (i.e. are the very old lenses like a summaron 3.5 and Elmar 90 f4?).

 

Also, 35 and 90 are great lenses on a film M but you need to consider the crop factor of the M8, you would most likely want something wider too, and bear in mind the cost (although there are less expensive options than Leica if its an issue).

[siulonbow]

Thank you Lars, I find your reply very informative. You have mentioned about the ‘S mode’ in the M8.2, and I agreed with what you say about using ‘S mode’ is a fail attempt for using Leica M series. Would you think M8 and 8.2 is the same if I don’t use the ‘S mode’ for the M8.2? Thanks

 

Thanks a lot for all other replies, I have look into the d-lux, but since I am very please with Leica’s lens. I would go into the route of accepting the offer for the 2 lens and purchase a M body. Thanks again.

[lars_bergquist]

Well, the two cameras are identical and there is no difference in image quality. The main differences between a M8-2 and a plain M8 >with updated firmware< are:

 

The 8-2 has a slower and somewhat quieter shutter. I don't find the original shutter noise objectionable, especially with 'discreet wind-on' engaged (needs current firmware) and the new shutter synchs for flash at 1/180 instead of 1/250.

 

There is a sapphire monitor cover which is scratchproof and the last thing to break if you drop the camera out of a fifth floor window. I have used normal care since 2007 and the cover is OK, and I do now carry the camera in a Crescenzi half-case (see http://www.leicatime.com). Who, me worry? (to quote the immortal Alfred E.Neumann).

 

The old man from the Age of the M8

[lars_bergquist]

Lenses: Leica lenses have of course improved with time, but you will be happy with most lenses from the last quarter-century. I have in fact used a 1958 vintage 90mm Elmarit on my M8 with good success. Others are using 50mm Summicron lenses from the same era, for their special 'fingerprint'. Sooner or later, the Red-dotted Demon will sink its claws into your flesh of course, and you will lust for more.

 

I agree that with the M8 sensor, a 35 is a standard lens (equivalent to a hypothetical 47mm) and a 90 stretches a bit to 120mm equivalent. They are useful, but you will eventually want something shorter. The stinking rich buy a 24 Summilux. The plain rich buy a 24 Elmarit. Poor techies buy a Zeiss ZM 24 Biogon and get it coded by inofficial means. Advice is to be found on this forum.

 

There is the issue of coding. This is a non-issue with lenses longer than 35mm. Just put on an IR-cutting filter (Leica UV/IR or B+W 486, set lens detection to "On+ UV/IR" and roll. Some persnickety people say they can detect a slight cyan corner shift with a 35 on some occasions, but just do the same with the 35 and see if you are bothered. I am not.

 

The old man from the Age of the Summar

[lars_bergquist]

Frank, it all depends on how much post-processing you want to do. I have spent much of my long life in unwholesome, evil-smelling wet darkrooms and is enjoying my escape. I do have the big exhibition quality prints hanging on my walls and I don't need more of them (not wall space enough).

 

The old man from the Age of Farmer's Reducer