Philosophical Issue RE M8

[Scott Root]

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I have been reluctant to jump into this M8 quagmire because I am not a professional photographer, but rather a respectable photographer who has religiously used an M6TTL for years, having packed it all over the world for many years as I work internationally in some of the remotest regions of the world. In my previous medium-format life I shot a Mammiya and a Hasselblad, only to find quality of pictures and durability in the Leica after the snipping.

 

I hope that this does not come across self-righteous, but I find the dismemberment of Leica that has recently taken place through this site appalling. For me this is more than a discussion of Cyan and UV—it is a philosophical issue. Here we have a most respected camera company that has demonstrated for decades its loyalty to its customers who has taken upon themselves the challenge of developing a rangefinder camera to compete with a goliath of a company, Canon. Difficult probably does not describe the task the team of Leica engineers faced as they tried to strike a balance between resolution and the UV problem. In truth, there are probably compromises that the laws of physics dictate must be made between the two. So, Leica proposes an external IR filter in view of maintaining resolution, color saturation, and what not and individuals continue to boo Leica. Hell, you might as well get mad at physics rather than Leica.

 

I for one would love to shoot an M8 without external IR filters and will probably find I experience enough of an adjustment curve to the agronomical outlay of the M8, which is to say that there is probably no one who is more uneasy at the prospect of adjusting to not only digital photography, but a camera other than my trusty M6TTL. However, I’ll shoot the M8 with IR filters knowing that physics dictates I do so in order to gain the quality of photograph I have come to appreciate using my trusty M6TTL.

 

And, what about our loyalty to Leica? I take my hat off to Leica for their commitment to offer a digital camera worthy of their M lenses. I don’t think Leica is set in its ways, I think those who will not consider using IR filters are stuck in their ways. Leica doesn’t need more pressure form everyone, it needs support and the confidence that we know David can beat Goliath.

[egibaud]

Thank you for expressing in such educated way what many of us should think for a second.

[plasticman]

Surely egibaud this is one of those endless repetitions you were complaing about in your "SHUT UP!!!!!!" thread?

 

Oh no, i just remembered - you only object to the critical repetitions.

[chetccox]

You are absolutely correct, but these laws of physics have been known for many years. Why did Leica not give us a clue that they were trying to ignore them and it didn't work!

[grober]

 

And, what about our loyalty to Leica? I take my hat off to Leica for their commitment to offer a digital camera worthy of their M lenses. I don’t think Leica is set in its ways, I think those who will not consider using IR filters are stuck in their ways. Leica doesn’t need more pressure form everyone, it needs support and the confidence that we know David can beat Goliath.

 

Loyality, Yes. Stupidity, No!

 

Many longtime Leica users suspected that the company had been working on a digital-M for some years. Armed with that knowledge, some of us started to plan and even set aside funds for the new camera many months before the official announcement. Some of us even sold prior generations of M-bodies and M-lenses to finance the new camera. Some of us put money down early last summer with our favorite local Leica dealers when the rumors became legitimate. Some of us dared to get excited when the M8 was finally announced in late September. Some of us got more excited when the aforementioned Leica dealer called us and said our camera was ready for pick-up. Some of us hurried to that dealer and laid cash on the counter to purchase the new camera.

 

NOW we're told that our loyalty requires us to invest even more precious treasure to buy several pricey IR surpression filters so that the M8 might be able to function as originally advertised.

 

Yeah, we've now reached the tipping point from LOYALTY to STUPID.

 

-g

[k_g_wolf ✝]

>> Scott

 

 

For a post with >>no. 7<< only (within this LEICA- Forum ) this is a very profound statement which I would like to undersign at once ! You expressed things much better, than I would have been capable to do. Thanks for this. Let´s wait for LEICA to come up with their official solution to solve these M8-bugs. A bit more of an official communication would certainly have calmed things down though ...

 

 

But wait: It´s only one week - or less - before we get THE answer, and this is only a second or much less by the way in a timeframe of the evolution of mankind.

 

Why don´t we just wait a bit ?

 

 

 

Best

[drjon]

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Bravo Scott; how very right you are. At the risk of being accused of flogging a dead horse, I reproduce below for the third time a message I sent twice before against other threads. It elicited very little response but it does seem apposite to this thread.

 

The M8 demonstrably suffers from IR contamination. This almost certainly arises from the use of a very thin glass cover in front of the sensor which provides insufficient blocking of the IR spectrum. Even in natural light, IR contamination can be an issue, but it is clearly a significant problem for those users requiring highly accurate colour rendition, especially under artificial lighting which normally contains relatively high concentrations in the IR spectrum.

 

Since nearly all real world objects reflect IR to a greater or lesser extent, dealing with the M8's IR contamination would require reducing the amount of the IR spectrum arriving at the sensor. I concur with those who believe that profiling or other software-related tweaks cannot provide an overall solution - Leica would be well advised to steer well clear of such solutions.

 

If I were Leica, I would not touch the sensor itself as, based on my own results and those I have seen posted on the web, they have a winning design here - this camera (using the M lenses) can produce wonderful pictures with that special Leica character. This leaves only two options, increase the IR blocking properties of the glass cover in front of the sensor, or mount an IR blocking filter in front of the lens. Neither of these two solutions should be an issue of principle for users - provided that transmission of light in the visible spectrum is completely unaffected.

 

Again, if I were Leica, I would not mess around with the glass cover; this could change the character and overall quality of the results currently seen from the camera which I for one like very much. This leaves only the use of filters in front of the lens. Such an approach has the advantage that those users who wish to take advanatage of the M8's IR sensitivity are free to do so.

 

I have no problem using filters on my lenses, I have always done so as do thousands of others; as I say, this should not be an issue of principle. However, I would expect Leica to provide M8 buyers with high quality IR cut filters at a discounted price and have such filters manufactured for Leica to Leica standards.

 

The only urgent firmware changes which I would suggest are those related to AWB - the M8 is easily disturbed under mixed lighting and the AWB does need improving - hardly something new for newly released digital cameras.

 

Leica have clearly made a mis-step primarily in marketing terms which, for a Company with their culture, they were bound to make sooner or later. I sincerly hope that they will not change their culture, there are precious few Companies left like Leica. They have made a mistake, but not one which will cause loss of life. The history of Leica and of photography is not about to be re-written because of the magenta issue.

 

Leica will survive this and, in the fullness of time, the M8 will surely take its place alongside the other legendary Leica cameras - as will the photographs which will be taken using this camera.

[drjon]

My other contribution to this very sensible thread.

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[max0442]

It is often said that a significant number of Leica owners are affluent older men, which may even ring true in my case, but I hope I do not become a gruppy affluent older man which appears to be a serious condition that some of our forum members are developing...

[earleygallery]

Scott,

 

The issue is that Leica kept mum about the potential problems and the need for filters & colour profiles until AFTER they released the camera. These issues only came to light through people buying and using the camera (not to mention the other issues).

 

Misleading your customer isn't a good way of rewarding brand loyalty IMHO.

[reddawn]

Hi

 

I've been a M shooter for 5 years and I have a Leica M6TTL. I have 3 M lenses, 2 of them the latest aspherical designs, plus a host of Leica accessories. I bought my camera new, not second hand. I contributed money directly to Leica's coffers and for the money I paid, I got a beautiful instrument I can work and play with, with outstanding imaging qualitites and unsurpassed feel. To me Leica symbolised quality. I know I can count and trust in their equipment. At the same time I'm not wedded to film and I do like digital and have extensive digital experience with Japanese made DSLRs.

 

So when Leica were finally awakened by Epson's RD-1 and declare they, too can make a digital rangefinder, I was naturally excited and can't wait to blend rangefinder shooting with digital. Leica, I figured, would deliver that killer product.

 

But Leica seems to have changed. It's not about physics - it's about the way Leica dealt with this situation with the M8.

 

Nothing, absolutely nothing, has been said about IR problems and the mandatory use of filters to achieve correct colors. This is not in the marketing literature nor their PR releases. Neither was it told or mentioned to any of the reviewers to whom Leica handed test cameras. I attended the Leica product launch when it came to my country. I handed the demo M8. I talked to the Leica reps, took shots with the camera. Without filter.

 

If this were a question of physics, why wasn't it mentioned before? Why wouldn't Leica know about it?

 

And if they knew it was avoidable in their design, then that makes it even more obscene - they shipped a camera fully aware of its flaws but kept quiet about it, until they could keep sillent no longer when these issues were discovered by customers who laid down hard cash for the cameras.

 

Add to this the light streaking problems (which should have been discovered easily if they bother to test it indoors or at night on the streets) and those funny green blobs (the lesser of the evils, but still a problem nonetheless), and we have a USD $5K piece of equipment that contains fundamental image quality flaws. How could these flaws be missed during testing and discovered within a day by users who bought the camera?

 

To top it off, they asked at least one reviewer not to mention the problems in his published review, promising a quick fix which they never delivered.

 

And now I am told I am "set in my ways" because I refuse to accept the use of filters as a permanent long term solution? And I have to buy filters for everyone of my lens just to make the M8 work the way it was supposed to be? Send the camera back to Leica as soon as I buy one so as to get the streaking problem fixed?

 

I'm sorry. It really doesn't make sense to me.

[mwilliamsphotography]

The only reason this M8 stuff rages on and on is because of blind brand loyalty, not in spite of it.

 

If they launched a Canon 1DsMKIII tomorrow with these types of problems, absolutely no one in their right mind would buy one, consider buying one, or retain an order to buy one ... at least not anyone I know who uses Canon ... which is most of my photo associates.

 

The philosophy behind this is ... no philosophy ... it's purely irrational ... and I include myself in that pack of Leica Lemmings ... as I still have my camera.

 

Leica is lucky to have such a loyal group ... the whiny grousing is evidence of it. What would be worse is indifferent silence ... that would be the sound of doom.

[atournas]

Scott,

 

Thanks for this positive contribution to that, still running, distrust peak against Leica.

Perhaps that issue with M8 has revealed different kinds of Leica-fanatics: those who only

want to carry and show off such a famous photographic/creative instrument, but their commitment to the Leica tradition is superfluous.

 

And those, just like yourself and a few others in the forum, who have retained both their

trust to Leica and their good will, simply offering all the time the company needs to fix those problems.

 

I am absolute sure Leica engineers have made the right decision between M-lens quality level and apparently inherent physics-rooted problems (by the way, reference to physical laws should have been made long ago--excellent point by you!).

 

I will certainly buy an M8 along with a 28 lens. When will depend on my bank account, not on whether Leica has fixed those...problems or not yet.

 

Best

Paul

[Samir Jahjah]

Scott,

Thanks for your contribution. But it is shortsighted: for the Digital M system to survive in the long run, they must appeal to photographers outside the breeds of current users, make sure the younger generation want to use it. There are some for whom it is a joy and a passion to work around the shortcomings of the M8, even if it means spending $5k + more on filters, and coding. But for the vast majority, spending $5k on a product which is not working at least as well as a Canon 20D 30D 5D or whatever is a non-starter, even if you can print 30x40 prints, even if it provides the best digital images!

 

I also believe that the M8 is priced quite aggressively ( I had expected a much higher price) and I would not be surprised if Leica reduced its margin to make it up with higher volumes....if that is the case (just a guess), Leica will have to come up with a new M8 that requires no filters.

 

As for Loyalty: I ll be again waiting for a M8 or M9 once they manage to get it work properly, with most problems fixed adequately. And if they cannot make such a camera at $5000, build it and sell it at $6000 or $7000.

[johnwolf]

Leica doesn’t need more pressure form everyone, it needs support and the confidence that we know David can beat Goliath.

 

Scott, I'm afraid this time David wounded himself with his own sling. Forgiveness is good, but so are repentance and accountability.

[Jamie Roberts]

The only reason this M8 stuff rages on and on is because of blind brand loyalty, not in spite of it.

 

If they launched a Canon 1DsMKIII tomorrow with these types of problems, absolutely no one in their right mind would buy one, consider buying one, or retain an order to buy one ... at least not anyone I know who uses Canon ... which is most of my photo associates.

 

The philosophy behind this is ... no philosophy ... it's purely irrational ... and I include myself in that pack of Leica Lemmings ... as I still have my camera.

 

Leica is lucky to have such a loyal group ... the whiny grousing is evidence of it. What would be worse is indifferent silence ... that would be the sound of doom.

 

Marc,

 

Gotta disagree. Canon has plenty of Guy Mancusos out there (heck, used be Guy Mancuso!).

 

A lot of us bought 1ds2 on the strength of the 1d2; only to find that blammo--lost files from CF cards, right?

 

So if the 1ds3 was announced tomorrow, I know a number of pros who would be juggling to get in line.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Had one of the first 1DsMKIIs in the US. My partner had the next one in line. We never had a problem from day one. A zillion wedding shots later it shoots like it just came out of the box.

 

Of course, I didn't obsess about the camera, and read some Canon forum 24/7 ... so if there was a problem we never knew about it : -O

 

Hmmm, maybe if I hadn't come here every day, my M8 would be shooting perfect pics, LOL.

[nrj]

The issue here seems to be one of trust. The philosophical logic involved centres around the situation that early adopters (EAs) trusted Leica to get it right because of their perception that Leica placed committment to photographic quality first. Clearly Leica made some choices which have compromised quality aspects but made it difficult for EAs to make an informed choice before buying. Now some people are saying trust Leica to fix it because.....well because Leica are committed to photographic quality first. This is what a philosopher (and many others) would call paradoxical - beats Zeno any day. Its at least plausible that Leica will only try to come up with a fix that they hope will be good enough to keep most people reasonably happy most of the time, and time will tell.

[Guest stevenrk]

The only reason this M8 stuff rages on and on is because of blind brand loyalty, not in spite of it.

 

If they launched a Canon 1DsMKIII tomorrow with these types of problems, absolutely no one in their right mind would buy one, consider buying one, or retain an order to buy one ... at least not anyone I know who uses Canon ... which is most of my photo associates.

 

The philosophy behind this is ... no philosophy ... it's purely irrational ... and I include myself in that pack of Leica Lemmings ... as I still have my camera.

 

Leica is lucky to have such a loyal group ... the whiny grousing is evidence of it. What would be worse is indifferent silence ... that would be the sound of doom.

 

Unfrotunately, well said. And unfortunately a strategic choice that won't sell enough cameras to keep the company alive long enough to move on.

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[reddawn]

Scott,

Thanks for this positive contribution to that, still running, distrust peak against Leica.

Perhaps that issue with M8 has revealed different kinds of Leica-fanatics: those who only

want to carry and show off such a famous photographic/creative instrument, but their commitment to the Leica tradition is superfluous.

 

Sorry Paul I'm more committed to photography, and the quality of the image than anything else. That's why we all buy and use Leica equipment, NO? I have had film Ms for 5 years and never have a problem with them. That's the tradition of Leica. What we are witnessing now, with the flawed introduction of the M8, is actually a break in that tradition.

 

I would say those who are in denial about the problems are the ones that are more interested in carrying showing off "such a famous photographic/creative instrument" and more interested in attaching themselves to a "tradition" than photography and quality imaging.