Viewfinder frame lines M8/8.2. Framing accuracy of M8?

[mark_s]

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I've been searching through the M8 forum and have found various posts dealing with frame lines, but none seem to answer my question. So perhaps you can help me out here or point me to the relevant thread.

 

I wear glasses and tried the M8.2 over the weekend. I could see the 35 mm frame lines very well, but the outer ones (the 24's I think) were difficult to see. Anyhow, I was using a 35 mm lens, so all was OK.

 

Now to my question: I would like to get an M8 (which I haven't tested) and not an M8.2 (which I did test). I have heard the frame lines were upgraded in the M8.2. Something about them being calibrated at 2 metres and not at 0.7. Now, I have no idea what effect this has.

 

Could you please explain what this means for real-world use, i.e. how and in what situations the new frame lines on the M8.2 are better than those on the M8. Will I notice the difference with, say, 24, 35, 50 or 75 mm lenses? The dealer said the improvements in accuracy are only really noticeable at longer focal lengths. So, does that mean framing for normal and wide lenses will still be accurate on the M8?

 

Thanks for your advice.

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[noah_addis]

The M8 framelines are calibrated to be accurate at close distances. So if you focus very close, you'll get what you expect.

 

At longer distances, where many people tend to shoot most of the time, you'll get more in your frame than the framelines suggest. This is true with all focal lengths, though I believe the 90mm is the most accurate since it's calibrated for a slightly longer distance.

 

In practice, you can either stress about it, buy an m8.2, upgrade your framelines or do as I did, which is get used to it.

 

I've never had a problem framing with the M8. I use a few main lenses and have learned to frame consistently. I'm perfectly happy with the way the camera works, and I think it's a much better value than an M8.2 or M8 with upgrades.

 

I'd say the 75 framelines are the worst, but they've always been harder to use since you just get the corner marks. If you don't have a long lens yet, you might think about a 90mm instead. I do use a 75 with no real issues, but the framelines aren't as pleasant to use as the 90mm framelines.

 

One benefit, sort of, with the M8 finder is that the framelines are a bit tighter than the ones on the M8.2. So with your glasses you'll be able to see the 24mm frames easier on the M8 than you could on the M8.2. Of course the downside is that the bigger frames are more accurate at most distances, but as I said I think if you stick to a few main lenses you can easily learn the angle of view of your lenses and you can frame accurately.

[mark_s]

Thanks for the great explanation, Noah.

 

As long as slightly more is captured on the image than is seen within the frame lines, then that's OK. It'll just take some getting used to, as with some DSLRs where, say, only 95% of the scene can be seen within the viewfinder. It would be worse if it was the other way around!

 

And that's also good news about the 24 mm frame lines being a bit tighter on the M8. Again, I was concerned that it might be the other way round and they would be even more difficult to see with glasses.

[dfarkas]

Noah has explained this very well.

 

It actually took me a bit of readjustment when I went from the M8 to the M8.2. I had gotten so used to correcting in my brain, that when I didn't have to anymore, I was still doing it.

 

If you are using a 35mm on the M8, I found that you'd always get more on the top and right of the frame than on the bottom and left. My trick when shooting people was to put the top horizontal line so that it was touching the top of my subject's head. Then, I got just the right amount of headroom at the top of my frame, didn't cut off too much of the bottom, and didn't end up with a mile of sky.

 

I also agree that 75 was the absolute worst. 28 and 90 seemed to be the most accurate. 35 and 50 weren't too bad and I never really used the 24 lines.

 

Good luck with your new M8.

 

David

[john_newell]

Most of M shooting is at 2m or less. I never understood the drive for the revised framelines...

[jaapv]

Although I agree fully with your second sentence, I wonder where you got that notion about the distance that Leica M cameras are shot at from. Certainly the photoforums here do not bear that out.

[Nicoleica]

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Although I agree fully with your second sentence, I wonder where you got that notion about the distance that Leica M cameras are shot at from. Certainly the photoforums here do not bear that out.

 

I haven't been shot at from any distance when using my M8 yet. Am I doing something wrong?

[jaapv]

I haven't been shot at from any distance when using my M8 yet. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes- you didn't provoke the Canon.

Thanks. I edited the typo

[offshore]

I haven't been shot at from any distance when using my M8 yet. Am I doing something wrong?

You have to be a MOVING target to be shot at, your standing still to long trying to figure out the framing.

[john_newell]

Although I agree fully with your second sentence, I wonder where you got that notion about the distance that Leica M cameras are shot at from. Certainly the photoforums here do not bear that out.

 

OOOPs - you are right, but I have an explanation -

 

It should have read: "Most of MY M shooting..."

 

I had a serious accident in the kitchen last weekend and my typing is not up to snuff although I am not usually missing whole words, only letters...sorry!

[nick.edwards1]

Hello Mark,

 

I notice that the lenses that you mention do not include the 28mm.

 

I wear glasses and have found that the 28 is perfect for my widest lens on the M8 - I would struggle if I had the 24 as I can not see those frame lines without removing my glasses - I use the 28 for 90% of my photographs.

 

I also took the advice of my dealer of not choosing focal lengths too close to each other so I have 28, 50 and 90.

 

I do not have a problem with the frame lines of any of these lenses on my M8 once I got it into my head that I was not using an SLR.

 

I cannot add any more to the comments already made on the accuracy of the frame lines other than I think what ever you choose you will get used to.

 

I would also like to support the comment already made that the M8 is the best value - I would choose it again tomorrow if I was in the market for a replacement.

 

Best regards,

 

Nick.

[hoppyman]

John I don't know the statistics of course and each person shoots differently. My guess is that 2 or 3m is common. Certainly is for people stuff for me.

I got my frame lines upgraded and am adjusting now to not having to adjust

For me it is a large improvement that I was prepared to pay for.

The frame line change of course arose out of opinions from places like this forum that the original setup was too inaccurate.

Most of M shooting is at 2m or less. I never understood the drive for the revised framelines...

[john_newell]

John I don't know the statistics of course and each person shoots differently. My guess is that 2 or 3m is common. Certainly is for people stuff for me.

I got my frame lines upgraded and am adjusting now to not having to adjust

For me it is a large improvement that I was prepared to pay for.

The frame line change of course arose out of opinions from places like this forum that the original setup was too inaccurate.

 

Yes - please see my correction. I can only speak for myself, but they work better for my uses today.

 

The forum software locks out edits quite quickly, it appears!

[sean_reid]

The M8 framelines are calibrated to be accurate at close distances. So if you focus very close, you'll get what you expect.

 

At longer distances, where many people tend to shoot most of the time, you'll get more in your frame than the framelines suggest. This is true with all focal lengths, though I believe the 90mm is the most accurate since it's calibrated for a slightly longer distance.

 

 

Yes, on the M8 the 24 - 75 frame lines are optimized for .7 meter. The 90 lines are set for one meter. Leica says that the M8.2 lines ( 24 - 90) are optimized for two meters.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Jeff S]

Leica says that the M8.2 lines ( 24 - 90) are optimized for one meter.

 

Sean, I thought that was 2 meters.

Jeff

[sean_reid]

Sean, I thought that was 2 meters.

Jeff

 

Sorry - that was a typo.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

Since the majority of the M8 framelines were too tight (leading to more in the image than you expected), the frames in the M8.2 are larger which makes the 24mm more difficult, if not impossible, to see, for someone wearing glasses. Even 28mm is tight.

 

That's why I hope Leica will at some point understand that the 50 year old viewfinder design has had its day and, at the cost of larger viewfinder windows, will produce a viewfinder with much better eye comfort. One of the less palatable truths is that Leica M users as a population are getting older (which IMHO will ultimately be the Leica M's undoing) and Leica should update the design to assist their ageing users.

 

Sorry if you're young and don't wear glasses but... you will.

[RockyIII]

Yes, on the M8 the 24 - 75 frame lines are optimized for .7 meter. The 90 lines are set for one meter. Leica says that the M8.2 lines ( 24 - 90) are optimized for two meters.

 

Do you know why? Surely, most shots are taken at greater distances?

 

Rocky

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[mark_s]

Hello Mark,

 

I notice that the lenses that you mention do not include the 28mm.

 

I wear glasses and have found that the 28 is perfect for my widest lens on the M8 - I would struggle if I had the 24 as I can not see those frame lines without removing my glasses - I use the 28 for 90% of my photographs.

 

I also took the advice of my dealer of not choosing focal lengths too close to each other so I have 28, 50 and 90.

 

Thanks for the info, Nick. I left out the 28 simply because I felt it is too close to the standard 35 mm "normal" lens. But it appears that you prefer to use the 28 as your standard lens, in which case the next "useful" step up from that would be the 50 mm, as you have in your setup.

 

I've now bought the 35 mm Summarit as my standard lens and probably won't be buying another lens for a while until I get used to using this and the M8 (my first rangefinder). I can see myself getting a 50, as I reckon the crop factor might make it a good portrait lens.

 

And since I have the 35 mm, I thought the next "useful" step down from that might be the 24, since the 28 is too close. However, if the 24 framelines are so difficult to use for glasses wearers, I might consider a 28 / 50 / 90 setup like yours.

 

How do your find the 90 mm lens as regard focussing accuracy?

[mark_s]

Since the majority of the M8 framelines were too tight (leading to more in the image than you expected), the frames in the M8.2 are larger which makes the 24mm more difficult, if not impossible, to see, for someone wearing glasses. Even 28mm is tight.

 

That's why I hope Leica will at some point understand that the 50 year old viewfinder design has had its day and, at the cost of larger viewfinder windows, will produce a viewfinder with much better eye comfort. One of the less palatable truths is that Leica M users as a population are getting older (which IMHO will ultimately be the Leica M's undoing) and Leica should update the design to assist their ageing users.

 

Sorry if you're young and don't wear glasses but... you will.

 

I wonder what percentage of Leica users wear glasses. I imagine it's quite high. When I buy binoculars, the amount of eye relief (i.e. comfort for glasses wearers) is the first specification I check out and is something that strongly influences my purchasing decision. It might be a wise decision if Leica were to start accommodating glasses wearers more by making the wide-angle framelines more visible for them.