Viewfinder frame lines M8/8.2. Framing accuracy of M8?

[thrid]

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Several folks on the forum have made that claim, but I think Leica says it's not so.

 

AFAIK, close focus was changed from 1 m to 0.7 m after the M3, but until the M8, the frames were always set for 2 m.

 

As you said, the idea that you'll always get at least what you see in the frame lines looks great on paper.

 

 

I believe you are thinking about rangefinder linkage. From the factory the RF in the M3 would not focus closer than 1 meter. Starting with the M2 the RF was able to focus as close as 70cm.

 

You can actually adjust the M3 RF to focus as close as 70cm, but from the factory it was limited to 1 meter.

 

But this has nothing to do with the area of coverage as indicated by the framelines.

[ChrisC]

I think you should drop Don Goldberg (DAGcamera) a line.......... you would probably be without the camera for a few weeks or even months.

 

Thanks for the idea. Not possible at present, and a long enforced M8 holiday would be a problem, but I'll bear the DAG suggestion in mind.

 

................. Chris

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[ho_co]

I believe you are thinking about rangefinder linkage. From the factory the RF in the M3 would not focus closer than 1 meter. Starting with the M2 the RF was able to focus as close as 70cm.

 

You can actually adjust the M3 RF to focus as close as 70cm, but from the factory it was limited to 1 meter.

 

But this has nothing to do with the area of coverage as indicated by the framelines.

 

This topic has been beaten to death on the forum. According to Leica, you are in error about the finder frames. And do, please, read before posting.

... but until the M8, the frames were always set for 2 m...

Edited August 20, 2009 by ho_co

[henning]

Several folks on the forum have made that claim, but I think Leica says it's not so.

 

AFAIK, close focus was changed from 1 m to 0.7 m after the M3, but until the M8, the frames were always set for 2 m.

 

As you said, the idea that you'll always get at least what you see in the frame lines looks great on paper.

 

All the M4's, M5's, M6's and the M7 I have or have had must then be anomalies, because their 75mm and shorter framelines were set to 1m resp. 0.7m.

 

I have often used my lenses at their shortest focussing distance, and I didn't cut off things when using the framelines. And, it hardly needs saying, I like the framelines in the M8 (and previous M's) as they are.

 

I also don't want a zooming finder. A finder like the Zeiss RF has would be nice, and since there is no rewinding, it won't result in the bottom rewind which was one of the main reasons I got rid of the M5 in a relatively short while.

 

If Leica could make a clear, bright rangefinder with LCD projected and auto-resizing framelines and good eye relief (no need for diopter correction on my account, but I know some people need it) I would be happy, but that is really not the main area of concern for me.

[thrid]

This topic has been beaten to death on the forum. According to Leica, you are in error about the finder frames. And do, please, read before posting.

 

I read your post and that is why I responded. You are wrong and based on your answers I suspect that you are operating on a limited amount of knowledge in regard to the subject.

 

Only the M8 has frame lines that show the coverage at 2 meters. I suspect that the M8 was originally set up for .7 meters and the error was multiplied by the results of the x1.33 crop.

 

Using the 50mm as an example:

 

- Pre-M6 bodies show coverage at 1 meter. (except for very late M4-P bodies with M6 tops and RF units)

 

- M6 and newer bodies (with the exception of special editions like the M6J and MP3) show coverage at .7 meters.

 

The basic rule is that the frame lines indicate the minimum amount that will be captured on the negative or sensor. That means that they show the area that is captured at the closest focusing distance and do not take in to account the change in magnification that occurs when the lens is focused from there to infinity.

 

Around the time that the M6 was introduced, Leica redesigned many of their 50mm lenses to focus as close as 70cm (previously 1 meter), which would explain why they also modified the frame line mask.

 

Call Don Goldberg, Sherry Krauter and have them explain it to you. Most of the people I spoke to at Leica didn't have a clue what I was talking about and those that did referred to the decision to indicate the minimum amount captured by the sensor or on film.

[ho_co]

All the M4's, M5's, M6's and the M7 I have or have had must then be anomalies, because their 75mm and shorter framelines were set to 1m resp. 0.7m. ...

Hmm. You must be right. My M4 and M5s didn't include frames for the 75mm lens.

 

... I have often used my lenses at their shortest focussing distance, and I didn't cut off things when using the framelines. ...

I think most of us feel the same.

 

And ... I like the framelines in the M8 (and previous M's) as they are.

Good for you. Because so many people prefer the framelines in the previous M's to those in the M8, Leica returned to that design with the M8.2 frames.

 

hen, I also didn't find the M8 frames particularly annoying, except for the fading out of the 50mm right hand vertical line in low light.

 

The point I obviously didn't make well is that according to Leica, there was one standard for setting frames before the introduction of the M8, one designed with color transparencies in mind. With the M8, Leica made the reasonable assumption that people wouldn't mind having the frames wider so that the image would always include everything that was in the finder frames.

 

Check the posts that followed the introduction of the M8. See Carsten's examples of how much more the M8 took in than shown in its original framelines (referenced above at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/94963-viewfinder-frame-lines-m8-8-2-a-2.html#post997475).

 

My point is that there was no major dissatisfaction with the M's framing until Leica changed the game with the M8. According to Leica, despite claims often made on the forum, finder frames for all pre-M8 cameras were designed for the same rules of coverage.

 

And thanks, hen, for pointing out my lack of clarity in the matter.

[ho_co]

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I read your post and that is why I responded. You are wrong and based on your answers I suspect that you are operating on a limited amount of knowledge in regard to the subject...

Sincere thanks, dirth! I accept your apology for blaming me when you missed the point of my post and repeated the extraneous matter, even if it was only implied.

 

You are correct that I am dealing only with the limited information furnished by Leica. And I'm doing that from memory, so errors may have crept in.

 

Thanks also for admitting your own uncertainty in regard to the M8's original frames.

 

Have you thought about informing Leica that their "official" information differs from Don's, Sherry's and yours? They would doubtless want to correct their error.

 

I'd be interested in seeing a copy of Don's or Sherry's statement on the matter, if you could publish their comments to you. They are both knowledgeable, competent and honest people in my experience.

 

With all the threads on finder frame accuracy the M8 has generated, it'll sure be a pity when only the old-style tighter frames are left (as on M8.2), won't it?

Edited August 21, 2009 by ho_co