Some news about the M8

[eronald]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I don't get it, I'm supposed to pay extra to get the camera to work as advertised ?

I suggest writing to them to fix the sensors, properly.

 

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9489-leica-write-campaign-no-filters-please.html

 

Edmund

[Joseph S. Wisniewski]

Guy, C1 needs to shoot their targets again with three or four M8s with filters on the lenses and construct new profiles, test 'em, and release 'em. 2-3 weeks at most. If you are one of their beta testers you might see them a week early.

That's not how modern color management works. The actual spectral response of the camera filters is measured, using a device called a monochromator. That's run through an analysis program that multiplies those responses by the spectra of a few thousand samples of plants, minerals, paints, plastic, skin samples, clothing, etc.

 

All PhaseOne needs to do is multiply the spectral response of the new filter with that of the existing camera filter curves and spectral responses, and regenerate the profiles. Since Schott can provide the IR cut spectral data, Phase One should have it done already.

Leica already includes the ability to remove the cyan corners when they occur in the DMR. Did you see the thread on this earlier today? Definitely can be added to the firmware. Of course, now they have another problem. 6 bits makes it possible to code exactly 64 lenses. Do they use a separate code for the filtered and unfiltered variant of each lens currently manufactured? That wastes one of their 6 spots and leaves only 32 lenses covered. Or do they insist that the existing 64 codes all describe lenses with filters in front of them, and if you leave the filter off, you get some novel behavior, like red fringes at the edges of the frame.

 

scott

I'd bet on the second.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

So do I and just bought a coded leica 21mm 2.8 asph.

[c6gowin]

FWIW, I am not at all happy about the prospect of having to buy and use filters on my lenses in order for the M8 to operate as it should. In my opinion, it is unacceptable for Leica to force the end user to correct Leica's mistake. I don't recall seeing any sort of disclaimer in the Leica M8 sales literature stating, "an additional special accessory lens filter required for accurate capture of black textiles." It would have been laughable if they did.

 

I do love shooting the little camera so I will wait to hear Leica's official announcement before getting too bent out of shape.

[jrgeoffrion]

I honestly don't understand why some are getting upset at the [potential] solution. Everyone received their M8 within reasonable time that the problem was identified. As such, the option of returning the camera was a very viable option (it may still be for some -- you guys should check with your cc as some provide return protection in case a dealer refuses to accept an item within a defined period of time).

 

It's not like anyone needs to shoot with an M8 -- there are other options for those that are not satisfied with an M8.

[billh]

That's nice. Any time estimate? I have two older lenses that could use the E39, and will wait for Leica to provide the filter if I buy the 28/2.8 "kit lens."

 

scott

 

Hi Scott,

 

My impression was it is imminent. I ordered these on Monday and he told me one week. I received the 39mm update today. If you want one, you might email and ask how long it will take.

 

juergen uhl, email is <leica@foto-hobby.de>

 

I assume they will also be available over here, but later rather than sooner. Pascals’s information seems to indicate they will not mess with the image quality when doing the fix, which makes me happy.

 

I bought the 28 f2.8 ASPH because the 28 Summicron was not available (they are apparently coding them), and I love that little lens. All my others take the larger filters.

[bobrudolph]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Perhaps this is too simple a question, but could Leica coat lenses

to have the same effect as these IR filters, would there be a downside to that approach?

[wilfredo]

I for sure will not be blowing $5000.00 on a camera that will require filters on the lenses to use when shooting black fabric, plus coding. The irony here is that Leica lenses are designed to work without filters in order to get the best possible outcome!!!!! How far will Leica loyalty extend???? As I see it, the filter option is only a temporary fix, one that will cost M* shooters more bucks, and DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM!!!! Are we Leica shooters going to become the laughing stock of the photography world???? I really do hope that Leica will do better than that.

 

In all honesty, I can't believe some people are still lining up to buy a camera that is not street ready. I feel for you guys who paid $5000.00 and got stuck with a virtual lemon, it's time to quit the denial about this.

 

It would appear that the glory days of Leica are behind us. Shame on Leica for selling a product before it was street ready. Is it time to start a Leica Recovery Group????

 

Wilfredo+

[rpierce]

Hmmm...after seeing the posts about the new 28mm lens that takes the 39mm filters and how they don't make them or may of just started making them, I hope I ordered the correct item last weekend from Adorama that they listed as follows:

 

"Item Number: BW39UVIRDP - B + W 39 DIGITAL PRO UV/IR CUT FLTR 486"

 

All the numbers seem correct. Of course, it is on backorder.

 

Bob Pierce

[Guest stevenrk]

For those who are curious as to how a B+W 486 works on a 28 Summicron, this thread may be of interest:

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/9364-wedding-486-filters-m8.html

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sean, how do you respond to the images that Mark Davidson has posted on the web that show that IR affects a wide range of colors when using or not using an IR cut filter -- see his link and descirption below. (By the way the redness you see in the faces of the subjects on the photos in your article is apparently because IR accentuates blood close to the surface of the skin leading to blotchiness.)

 

Also, you make no mention of the fact that the IR cut filters are a bright reflective red at an angle, catching the eye noticeably as you raise a camera or pass by a subject. Isn't this worth noting and doesn't it impact the usefulness of the filter for anything that isn't a situation where people are expecting you to take their picture?

 

Best, Steven

 

See

 

Infrared filtration examples

 

for some comparative examples of IR filtration. I have included a Leica M8 shot where the filtration was done by applying the modified Phase One profile from Jamie.

 

Here's a description:

The scene was shot with incandescent illumination from ordinary lightbulbs. The camera white balances were set to 2800 K where possible. The Epson R-D1 was set to incandescent.

 

The first example is the D200, which is very insensitive to IR. The colors in the first D200 photograph are a very accurate rendition of the way the scene appears to my eye. Take special note of the maroon and green pile blankets, the black Leica M lens, and the black pile jacket at the bottom of the photograph. The second photograph shows the D200 with IR cut filtration (via a Tiffen standard hot mirror filter). There is hardly any visible change in the colors. The third photograph is with the D200 and the IR pass filter (a Hoya R72), taken at the same exposure as the first two photographs. There is no visble IR at all at this exposure.

 

The photographs continue in sequence for 3 more cameras: the Leica M8, the Epson R-D1 and the Nikon D2h. For each camera I show an image with no filtration, with IR cut, and IR pass, all at the same exposure. Note how much IR is recorded by the M8--it is the most IR sensitive of all the cameras. Note also how the IR contamination has completely bleached the green out of the green pile blanket, how the maroon blanket has shifted color, how there is a purple sheen on the barrel of the Leica lens, and how the black pile jacket has turned dark purple. The shot with IR cut filtration knocks down the purple sheen on the lens barrel, improves color saturation and contrast overall, but doesn't quite return the green pile blanket to the correct color. Note also that there was a glowing IR reflection from the "black" pile jacket on the bottom of the apple which is taken out by the IR filtration.

 

Similar comments apply to the Nikon D2h, but the infrared sensitivity is weaker and the corrections with the IR cut filter look better to my eye.

 

The Leica M8 shot which has been filtered by application of the profile Jamie supplied does have better blacks in the anodized aluminum objects, but the green of the pile blanket at the top has not been restored, and in general the colors of the pile fabrics look faded. More subtly, the IR reflection on the bottom of the apple has not been removed.

 

My point is that IR contamination is not something that only affects synthetic black objects and dark anodized aluminum--it contaminates practially all synthetic pile fabrics that I can find in my house. So you can't just hunt down dark purple things and change their color. (By the way, if you shoot social events and students in classrooms in Seattle in the winter, you are going to encounter a lot of pile jackets and incandescent light, so this is not some obscure rare combination, at least for my use.)

 

Mark Davison

[bsmith]

Mark's test images never included shooting with a b&w 486 filter. The Tiffen hot mirror filter changes other colors, the 486 does not.

[sean_reid]

Good news, Sean! I appreciate your work.

H.

 

Thanks Herbert.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest stevenrk]

Thanks Herbert.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

So that answers the first question, and will wait to see your test shots. Second question: Also, you make no mention of the fact that the IR cut filters are a bright reflective red at an angle, catching the eye noticeably as you raise a camera or pass by a subject. Isn't this worth noting and doesn't it impact the usefulness of the filter for anything that isn't a situation where people are expecting you to take their picture?

 

Best, Steven

[ho_co]

Hey, guys!

 

You got the camera a month earlier than expected, okay? So if it goes back to Solms for 2 weeks, you've still come out 2 weeks ahead.

 

You've seen the pictures the camera makes without the IR cut filter, and they're impressive, aren't they? David Adamson, Guy Mancuso, Costa Manos, Michael Reichman, Sean Reid have shown that.

 

The reason the M8 makes such pictures is its design; and because of that design, we should use a filter. The only problem with that is that out of habit we're used to using no filter before the lens. But it's clear (Guy and Sean have both commented on it) that the camera makes better pictures with the filter than without, so you decide. As JR Geoffrion said, no one is forcing you to buy an M8; nor is anyone forcing you to buy filters.

 

And although it's pretty clear that a firmware update, maybe a hardware modification, and filters are in the offing, remember: Leica hasn't officially made the announcement so far.

 

So wake up and smell the coffee! Do you want what are apparently the best files available from a 35mm format camera, or don't you?

 

--HC

[sean_reid]

Good thinking - I love the idea - hopefully Leica does it too:cool:

 

I've suggested this same idea previously as well so I agree with JR. My implementation would look a bit different but it's a good idea.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Scott,

 

I received this email from Germany today:

 

The B&W Company will now produce the IR in size E 39. I just did change the

order and so there is no need to buy the additional filter ring. I do hope that you will agree.

 

I assume this is because of the situation with the M8, but these will apparently now be available.

 

Bill

 

Hi Bill,

 

They've made it in the past apparently but there was never much demand hence few were made.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Hi Scott,

 

My impression was it is imminent. I ordered these on Monday and he told me one week. I received the 39mm update today. If you want one, you might email and ask how long it will take.

 

juergen uhl, email is <leica@foto-hobby.de>

 

I assume they will also be available over here, but later rather than sooner. Pascals’s information seems to indicate they will not mess with the image quality when doing the fix, which makes me happy.

 

I bought the 28 f2.8 ASPH because the 28 Summicron was not available (they are apparently coding them), and I love that little lens. All my others take the larger filters.

 

My contact at Schneider USA said 5-6 weeks but maybe they're trying to do a rush order. It's a very complicated filter to make, I'm told.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[norm_snyder]

I had debated whether to return my M8, but I am finding myself amongst the lucky early adopters--my interests are in the black and white results, which for me have been excellent. Even the JPEGS are producing results, with lenses I already owned, that have been remarkable. The banding...well, that's probably another issue, and I will be happy to ship the camera off for a couple of weeks to have the "fix" applied. Filters? Not a major issue for me, but an acceptable interim solution, just as in the mountains in Mexico, UVa was useful for some rare color shots. The result then was better with the filter than without, and using the 486 [which I've not bothered to order at this point, since I shoot 95% B&W] seens a reasonable approach.

--Norm

[sean_reid]

 

1) Sean, how do you respond to the images that Mark Davidson has posted on the web that show that IR affects a wide range of colors when using or not using an IR cut filter -- see his link and descirption below. (By the way the redness you see in the faces of the subjects on the photos in your article is apparently because IR accentuates blood close to the surface of the skin leading to blotchiness.)

 

2) Also, you make no mention of the fact that the IR cut filters are a bright reflective red at an angle, catching the eye noticeably as you raise a camera or pass by a subject. Isn't this worth noting and doesn't it impact the usefulness of the filter for anything that isn't a situation where people are expecting you to take their picture?

 

Best, Steven

 

1) I haven't seen the thread but I understand that he was using another kind of filter. I don't understand your theory about the redness in faces as it relates to a filter that *removes* IR by reflecting it back into the world. Your theory seems to relate to things that happen when IR is present. Short answer though, new profiles are needed for files made with the 486 filters - not a big deal and I plan to have some made up. That said...the new profile will be to make nicey-nice expected color for the clients (commercial work delivery). For myself, I actually like the color rendering with the filters as is (ie: with the profiles being "off" with the filters). Fidelity to life isn't always what I'm after. I like the surface this combination creates, esp. in faces. One has to know to do it both ways...conventional color rendering for situations where that's needed, alternate (and truer in a sense) color rendering for when one is free to make the camera paint as he wants. To fully appreciate the latter, it helps to have looked carefully at a lot of painting and Robert Bergman's book, "A Kind of Rapture".

 

2) I just shot a huge wedding and often worked very close to my subjects. The red reflection, if they noticed it at all, didn't seem to make a bit of difference. I think it's a red herring (pun not originally intended).

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[sean_reid]

I had debated whether to return my M8, but I am finding myself amongst the lucky early adopters--my interests are in the black and white results, which for me have been excellent. Even the JPEGS are producing results, with lenses I already owned, that have been remarkable. The banding...well, that's probably another issue, and I will be happy to ship the camera off for a couple of weeks to have the "fix" applied. Filters? Not a major issue for me, but an acceptable interim solution, just as in the mountains in Mexico, UVa was useful for some rare color shots. The result then was better with the filter than without, and using the 486 [which I've not bothered to order at this point, since I shoot 95% B&W] seens a reasonable approach.

--Norm

 

I'm not going to bother with the filters at all for B&W (which is my primary medium). I'll be talking about the BW effects of the filters in the revised part 4 article that has several new sections brewing right now.

 

Sean