Guest joewehry Posted August 5, 2009 Share #401 Posted August 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Re: the comment..."I would have at least preferred something showing off stunning richness in details and colours." with respects to Mr. Grischek's work. If you are referring to the photos in LFI 1/2009, I disagree. Given that he was working with a prototype, the photos are amazing. First, I'm no fashion expert so my language is lame. Still....Ex on PG 20, to capture the nuanced orange and pink without rendering them in nuclear saturated color caught my attention and I was immediately impressed with the camera's results before turning the page. The BW on 22 ad(d)s new meaning to "MTF curves", resolving fine details in the fibers and weave of the form-fitting garment. The detail of the eye on 27 shows clarity in resolution without turning the skin into pixelated sharpness. Finally, on pg 25 you have an outstanding example of capturing the sheen of the saturated shoe and the soft drape of the fabric, contrasted with the soft skin tones, texture in the belt and lightness of the sheer blouse. In this example alone, the S2 (and photographer) has beautifully captured an amazing range of textures, tones and details, and differentiated them without fault, and --better yet--without looking obvious! What exactly were you looking at?! [Edit: If you were referring to the website images, what can you expect viewing on a display? My guess is the market for the S2 will be printing the images.] Mr. Grishek and the S2 did quite well in my book. I recommend taking another look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 5, 2009 Posted August 5, 2009 Hi Guest joewehry, Take a look here S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted August 5, 2009 Share #402 Posted August 5, 2009 I think Felipe puts it very well. I also deplore the attitude that good handiwork is necessarily mind-numbing or demeaning. I'm sure that most if not all of those that work for Leica are proud of their jobs, and don't in any way see it as 'drudgery'. Did you realize I was making a joke? -- "Workers should rise up and revolt." Didn't that clue you in? Maybe those exploited Asian workers are proud of their jobs too and don't see it as drudgery either. It may be their first step up the rung of the economic ladder. Next thing you know their kids will be doctors and lawyers. My grandmother worked a sewing machine in a clothing factory. (But nobody in subsequent generations in our family did that because we all went for higher education and more lucrative careers.) I have some idea. Let's see if they form unions. I guess there is a job for every type of person and there could be some who get satisfaction out of painting lines on lens barrels perfectly over and over and over again. (I bet most of those people have few options.) There was a cartoon in the New Yorker. A Viking was sitting with his wife at the dinner table complaining, "Finn didn't show up for work today. I had to do all of his raping and pillaging." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 5, 2009 Share #403 Posted August 5, 2009 you shouldn't bash his work... Now you bash me for pointing this out You're a real class act... I am not bashing you. You're doing that on your own just fine. All I did was giving three options. R10Dreamer went for #3. As did you for yourself. Thanks for calling me a class act. I appreciate it coming from you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBA Posted August 5, 2009 Share #404 Posted August 5, 2009 forget it...I'm done with internet forums Really don't blame you at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 5, 2009 Share #405 Posted August 5, 2009 Re: the comment..."I would have at least preferred something showing off stunning richness in details and colours." with respects to Mr. Grischek's work. If you are referring to the photos in LFI 1/2009, I disagree. Given that he was working with a prototype, the photos are amazing. First, I'm no fashion expert so my language is lame. Still....Ex on PG 20, to capture the nuanced orange and pink without rendering them in nuclear saturated color caught my attention and I was immediately impressed with the camera's results before turning the page. The BW on 22 ad(d)s new meaning to "MTF curves", resolving fine details in the fibers and weave of the form-fitting garment. The detail of the eye on 27 shows clarity in resolution without turning the skin into pixelated sharpness. Finally, on pg 25 you have an outstanding example of capturing the sheen of the saturated shoe and the soft drape of the fabric, contrasted with the soft skin tones, texture in the belt and lightness of the sheer blouse. In this example alone, the S2 (and photographer) has beautifully captured an amazing range of textures, tones and details, and differentiated them without fault, and --better yet--without looking obvious! What exactly were you looking at?! Mr. Grishek and the S2 did quite well in my book. I recommend taking another look. Okay, I had another look. Photo on page 20 - The problem with orange (pink too, slightly lesser degree though) is not necessarily when shooting but when printing. Orange is in print (cmyk) the most difficult colour to reproduce. LFI on the other hand does not print in cmyk. The use a technology called flexible raster point (I believe, forgot the exact name) which allows them to print more like a high-end ink jet printer where cmyk is split into sub-colours like cyan and bright cyan. That alone makes for stunning orange tones. Not necessarily the S2. In the shot are also 3 white "circles". When looking closely you'll see that the one on the left has a fine bright blue line around it while the two on the right don't. Not sure what that is. Chromatic aberration? Photo on pps 22-23 - That's not a b&w shot whatsoever. It's colour. Plus, the "fine details in the fibers and weave of the form-fitting garment" looks rather pixel-ish which in all fairness could be from the fact that the form-fitting garment is stretched. Not sure what area the enlarged pic shows but I guess, it's from the model's back. Let's look at the model's face. Maybe it's just in my issue but the thing on the right side of her head, just under the brim of the hat, where her ear is supposed to be ... what the heck is that?????? Those green blobs below her arms show a lot of texture. Is that noise/grain? In the red areas above her arms it looks a lot softer, like someone used NoiseNinja??? Photos on pps. 24 + 25 - Don't know what to say but to me they look like a nice retouch job. Lots of softening. Maybe it's just because of lack of matching software as they say. Hope that wasn't part of software Phase One was supposed to deliver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest joewehry Posted August 5, 2009 Share #406 Posted August 5, 2009 Harald, thanks for taking the time to clarify your comments and the mini-lesson in printing. After Toronto, have you considered Missouri? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted August 5, 2009 Share #407 Posted August 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Harald, thanks for taking the time to clarify your comments and the mini-lesson in printing. After Toronto, have you considered Missouri? From one smarta** to another, glad to be of service Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 5, 2009 Share #408 Posted August 5, 2009 Why do people on this forum have a down on Porsche's and dentists? Wilson PS I am not a dentist Meaning, you drive a Porsche. If so, good for you. Now, buy an S2 and tells us all about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 5, 2009 Share #409 Posted August 5, 2009 Meaning, you drive a Porsche. If so, good for you. Now, buy an S2 and tells us all about it. Rick, I do drive a Porsche 911 but I consider it fine value for money, not least because unlike recent Leica equipment I have had, both lenses and cameras (in contrast to my older Leica equipment which never goes wrong), I never have any "down time" with unwanted repairs. However just like a Leica, it delivers on pleasure of ownership, use and performance. If you look at a calculation I did on a post above, I estimated from Leica's own figures that the R+D amortization costs on the S2 work out at around €5,000 per camera or around 30%+ of the wholesale cost. That alone makes the S2 poor value for money in my eyes. I will be sticking to my M's for the foreseeable future. Now I might consider a Noctilux at some point but only after I have tried the new 50 Nokton 1.1 as value for money is again a big consideration. Anyway I cannot now afford an S2, as I am probably going to spend any spare cash I have on another 911 - a 1976 Carrera 3.0 RSR replica historic racer ;-}} Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/92029-s2-available-in-october-starting-price-of-%C2%A315996/?do=findComment&comment=983601'>More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted August 5, 2009 Share #410 Posted August 5, 2009 What a relief! We've come full circle to the Porsche. Now, if this was taken with an S2... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted August 5, 2009 Share #411 Posted August 5, 2009 What a relief! We've come full circle to the Porsche. Now, if this was taken with an S2... From the stunning quality, I suspect it was taken with a mobile phone. When I go to try it on Sunday, I hope the white balance was off and it is not really that colour. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 5, 2009 Share #412 Posted August 5, 2009 I think that people who believe a real Leica has to be made in Germany don't really understand modern manufacturing methods. In the space of two years I bought two Apple 17" Powerbooks, the first made in the US and the second in China. Apart from a faster processor, they were identical. The China made one is a piece of junk compared with the first one from the US. Fit, finish, feel, physical integrity, etc, are all so different. A number of subsequent macs from China have been junk. Apple's 10 day 'Dead on Arrival' policy has been a lifeline. Good manufacturing is about so much more than programming robots. High community standards and personal integrity are built into the cultures of some countries. It both builds and stems from a nation's institutions - the law, the government, the people. It flows through into education, community infrastructure and individual standards for performance and integrity. Would Rolex do well if they moved manufacturing to Haiti? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted August 6, 2009 Share #413 Posted August 6, 2009 Rick, Chevrolet/Toyota. If those Japanese could only emulate our superior culture, Toyota could make a car as good as the Chevy. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 6, 2009 Share #414 Posted August 6, 2009 Rick, Chevrolet/Toyota. If those Japanese could only emulate our superior culture, Toyota could make a car as good as the Chevy. Steve Ha. Actually I was thinking about the German and Japanese cultures in particular, not so much the US culture (which I don't think is so inclined to high standards). And also about the national institutions of modern Western democracies, of which the US is a fine example. Either of these can be a support to excellence in manufacturing. Germany and Japan have both. I will be happiest if my S2 and lenses are made in Germany. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted August 6, 2009 Share #415 Posted August 6, 2009 Rick, Chevrolet/Toyota. If those Japanese could only emulate our superior culture, Toyota could make a car as good as the Chevy. Steve Toyota and GM turned out the same car in the same plant in Freemont, California. The Toyota Camry and the Pontiac Vibe. Toyota and other Japanes companies got a lot of its ideas from the American Dr. Deming. I don't know if Russia had much of a tradition or culture of high quality but Faberge did OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted August 6, 2009 Share #416 Posted August 6, 2009 Can't remember the last time I lifted a car to my eye to take a shot. Just had to be said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted August 6, 2009 Share #417 Posted August 6, 2009 One last time: ;-) It took us over 100 years to evolve from primitive large-scale-production (early-industrialization) to high-technology prodiuction with skilled workforces! Over the last two decades most production wasn't evolving technologically, it was stepping backwards! One example because it seems a little bit tricky to understand for people who never actually had the chance to compare production in high-wage-countries vs. low-wage-countries: You have a plastic-shell (whether it be from your car interior, notebook...). The last step is assembly, putting this shell to it's final position - it barely matters who is doing these 2 seconds of work (but when problems occur, they're much easier to solve with skilled workers and R&D isn't on the other side of the world). But it starts with making the tool for molding the plastic-shell. That's really complicated and based on complex designs, erosion-processes, high-tech-milling-processes, measuring... In Germany alone various different educations for these tasks were created, each takes up to 3 1/2 years (I'm not talking about engineers, I'm talking about workers!). This tool can weight over 100kg (for small plastic parts) and can cost over 100k$. Then this tool is put into the moulding machine which has to be controlled and maintained on a daily basis to guarentee constant quality (we're still taking about production, not just R&D!). Skilled workforces can maintain more sophisticated moulding machines with complex automation systems. The end-product is this tiny plastic-piece, whose quality is not just based on R&D or the guy who assembles it in some fab, but on various aspects! Germany currently has the world-market-leaders for the necessary tecnology: moulding machines, tools, measuring systems, tool-makers - never wondered why the plastic-parts of consumer-electronic are of such a bad-quality compared to the interior-parts of an Audi, BMW or Mercedes? But this whole industry is in danger, too. Not because it's inefficient, expensive or of low-quality. Because it's inconvenient for bankers who understand nothing about production processes, only about cash-flow and operating profit (for the next quarter)... Should we really throw away all this know-how (= send it to China), ending up like Detroit? We need more quality, more environmental-friendly production-processes and low-wage-slave-work is the exact opposite! Lawyers, dentists and marketing-people are just a tiny fragment of our economics and not capable of keeping it alive. We pay billions for toys alone every year, where does the money end up? In the pockets of the people who buy them in the States or Western Europe? In the pockets of the workers making theses toys in China? No, upper-class management all over the world gets it! It's not about national borders, it's about classes. We had these classes in Europe for hundreds of years, it was convenient (I love this word ;-) but instable, hindered the progress of society, democratics were introduced again by the States and France to fight these classes! "Certainly working conditions are excellent at the Nikon plant in Thailand" Well, then you should start working there, based on my information the workers in Thailand get 150$/month, the workers (doing basically the same work but for the D3/D3x) in Japan 1800$/month. In the early 90s, tenthousands of Japanese jobs were off-shored to Thailand by Nikon to cut costs. But the cameras of course didn't become cheaper (they never do) - so where did the money go? Most of it had to be used for the investments, quality-control, communication and less-efficient work of unskilled workers but the rest was given to the shareholders! Neither Canon or Panasonic offshored their camera-production on this scale and they not only survived, they out-compete Nikon (which has various reasons, Japanese fabs are only one of them). What does Nikon do facing strong competition or "financial-crisis"? Yeah, cutting costs again, investing even less! So they fired thousands of workers in Thailand within weeks and propably offshore more production to China where they don't have to observe the law, they just have to pay the corrupt government! This not only happened to Nikon, or to Japanese manufacturers, it happend to the German-industry, the US-industry - from a long sighted perspective, barely any company survived this madness! High-wage-workers are part of our economy, their purchasing power and their taxes keep our economics alive! The majority of Chinas population is poor, even by their standards (Chinese mid-class starts with 5000$/year!) and most of these people have their job because they're poor! Their economy is based on selling their products to high-wage-countries, they depend much more on us then we do on them (even if they try to convice us otherwise, I lived decades beneath the GDR - just good news, no violence, no poverty - well and then the truth came out...)! Well, the S2 is a niche product and won't change the world, if it's a success or not - but it's propably a signal, the flagship of future development. So most of this has barely anything to do with the S2 or Leica, but nevertheless it's important to understand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
felipe-m Posted August 6, 2009 Share #418 Posted August 6, 2009 One last time: ;-) I agree on most points, but it's also fair to point out that production can be successfully done in developing countries. "Successfully" sensu latu, respecting also the non-strictly-business sides. There are examples, but very few. If Leica ever grows enough to expand production and even moves some of it overseas, hopefully they keep or improve on quality and pricing, while respecting the non-business side (environment, socio-economics and humanistics). Wishful thinking? perhaps, so be it... I'm no expert, but their (tiny) track record could be worse, with North America, Portugal, etc. although off course these are not very poor places... Trouble starts when companies take shortcuts to cut costs, at all cost (pardon the pun), to gain an edge. The gain is mostly in marketing and pricing because the overall quality of the product tends to suffer. Most consumers in rich countries sustain this by choosing the cheap stuff, especially if it manages to somehow do the job for a while. A sad but logical choice, but let's not stick our heads in the sand about this... It's easy to ignore or dismiss, or flag as "off topic", as long as one is far away from it all, couching comfortably and tipping on a cheap computer. Probably Leicas are overpriced, but a fair chunk of this perception comes from other very cheap prices, often linked to cheap labour with a more than suspicious track record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted August 6, 2009 Share #419 Posted August 6, 2009 Can't remember the last time I lifted a car to my eye to take a shot. Just had to be said. Hi there Guy, good to "see" that you! I do a lot for my clients but lifting a car to my eye calls for the super hero photographer.... not I. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_dykstra Posted August 6, 2009 Share #420 Posted August 6, 2009 One last time: ;-) It took us over 100 years to evolve from primitive large-scale-production (early-industrialization) to high-technology prodiuction with skilled workforces! <big snip> Great post George. From time to time I pull our Miele vacuum cleaner apart, once to replace the carbon brushes in the motor, once to fix a switch. It's beautiful in there. Just as it is inside my R8 Motor Drive. I can't wait till I need to pull my S2 apart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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