S2 available in October / starting price of £15,996

[haribo]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Actually for myself, I would like my cameras and their optics to be well built like tanks.

 

Short product cycles are fine for consumer products but not for professional products meant to last.

 

Canons and Nikons have excellent top of line cameras and built to last but I have had niggardly little issues that can only be quality of parts. Perhaps if they priced their cameras and optics at double the current, the few percent of lemons will reduce.

 

Past experience with Hassy, Sinar, Rollei (film days) have all been good for me basically because they perform like tanks in all conditions and at all apertures that I use. I really liked that.

 

High ISO noise abilities, live view, video, anti-dust sensor cleaning, anti shake are relatively new frontiers that open up photography and if you need it you don't really have a choice but go to those who have it. Those are relatively exclusive feature sets. Really nice to have and in some cases absolutely essential. Its really a case of differentiating from competitors and a matter of you picking the right tool.

 

In the case of the S2, the differentiation may not be sufficient for many who have the money to buy it.

 

come on, we live in really good times when there are so many diverse tools to do photography really well. Its only the financial aspect thats makes certain tools out of reach.

 

 

You misunderstood me. With my Nikon example I was not listing things I'm interested in for myself. I only listed a few common DSLR features for the sake of making a point.

If Nikon or Canon for that matter would decide to go a similar route as I outlined in my fictive example - and who knows, Canon might just do it with their upcoming 1DSMark4, (that's one of the many rumors, we might find out before year's end) - they could add features like that without breaking out in a sweat.

 

When I was referring to a "Tank like built" I don't mean necessarily a sturdy built but rather building something for eternity. There is no such thing anymore in digital photography.

While it makes sense for a M camera and particularly M lenses - relatively speaking a small investment, can be used for years to come on different m body incarnations and won't lose too much resale value - it becomes a completely different ball game in the high priced MF pro market.

 

Let's say 2 years down the road ... yes, a S2 owner (I'm talking Pro owner, not enthusiastic amateur) can still put nails into a wall with it but the technology inside the camera will be completely obsolete by then. What a pain in the behind it must be for the guy who's still making monthly lease payments for it?????

 

 

(Keep in mind, a wealthy amateur who buys the S2 will pay for it in full, while most pros won't be willing to tie up such an amount of money when the monthly lease payments are instant tax write-offs for them.)

 

 

PS: You're mentioning Sinar and Rollei cameras. Indeed, great film cameras!

I wholeheartedly agree with you. But tell me, where in our digital world are those companies today?????

[haribo]

The fact that there seems to be no kits offered tells me that they seem to be building to order and want to build data profiles of their customers.

 

Again, you're thinking 35mm world and because of it are falling for Leica's misleading marketing trap.

In the MF world there is no such thing as an inferior kit lens. The 80mm lenses that Hasselblad or Phase through in for free are top of the line lenses. Nothing inferior there. Just an excellent lens for free to sweeten the deal.

[lxlim]

You misunderstood me. With my Nikon example I was not listing things I'm interested in for myself. I only listed a few common DSLR features for the sake of making a point.

If Nikon or Canon for that matter would decide to go a similar route as I outlined in my fictive example - and who knows, Canon might just do it with their upcoming 1DSMark4, (that's one of the many rumors, we might find out before year's end) - they could add features like that without breaking out in a sweat.

 

When I was referring to a "Tank like built" I don't mean necessarily a sturdy built but rather building something for eternity. There is no such thing anymore in digital photography.

While it makes sense for a M camera and particularly M lenses - relatively speaking a small investment, can be used for years to come on different m body incarnations and won't lose too much resale value - it becomes a completely different ball game in the high priced MF pro market.

 

Let's say 2 years down the road ... yes, a S2 owner (I'm talking Pro owner, not enthusiastic amateur) can still put nails into a wall with it but the technology inside the camera will be completely obsolete by then. What a pain in the behind it must be for the guy who's still making monthly lease payments for it?????

 

 

(Keep in mind, a wealthy amateur who buys the S2 will pay for it in full, while most pros won't be willing to tie up such an amount of money when the monthly lease payments are instant tax write-offs for them.)

 

 

PS: You're mentioning Sinar and Rollei cameras. Indeed, great film cameras!

I wholeheartedly agree with you. But tell me, where in our digital world are those companies today?????

 

If the technology is indeed obsolete but quality of image produced is invisible to the customer, I would not be very concerned. I agree that if a technology becomes a competitive edge to displace me it becomes an issue.

 

I agree there is no such thing as built for eternity in the digital space nor film for that matter but at the consumer space (not photography consumers) where professionals make a living, budgets will get slashed hard and fast. I just cannot to buy and sell equipment on a 3 to 4 year basis even if digital demands otherwise. It just have to be longer, much longer. Customer demands are my first priority. Fortunately, photography remains just as fun on small budgets.

 

Sinar and Rollei are gone because the need for them is not there. The market did decide there. I moved on long before the market decided. Quite a few of my friends were astonished that I switched from 4x5 to a Canon D30. So I understood why Guy Mancuso switched from an M8 to Phase One. Photography remains constant whether you are using a film or digital, a 4x5 or a 1D. The market changes.

 

Personally, I do think pros should not lease but purchase. Leasing assumes the market remains constant and you will always earn the same amount or more each month. You are really stuck when your market disappears on you.

 

A smaller subset of equipment of course demands that you can only serve a smaller market. It is not an entirely bad thing to build strong vertical niches. That is what I see Leica doing with the S2.

 

I might have to wait for heaven so I could line up to get a free S2 from the receiving angel. Hopefully its an S4, though.

[lxlim]

Again, you're thinking 35mm world and because of it are falling for Leica's misleading marketing trap.

In the MF world there is no such thing as an inferior kit lens. The 80mm lenses that Hasselblad or Phase through in for free are top of the line lenses. Nothing inferior there. Just an excellent lens for free to sweeten the deal.

 

I know, my Rollei 6008 and the Sinar came with truly excellent kit lenses but I used a APO Macro Sironar 210f5.6 99% of the time.

 

My point was that they are parcelling out individual components. Kit lenses may or may not be used. My 80f2.8 was very rarely used. You cannot break down the usage easily.

 

Its a little hard to plan for an S2 75f1.0 noctilux if you do not know the demand for a particular lens. If you ask the forum users, they will answer with their hearts. AYE! Their wallets WILL speak a different vocabulary.

 

The 30-90 zoom might actually be a better best seller but my mind boggles at the thought of a 75mm f1.0 it will probably cost an S2 and 3 lenses combined.

 

Empirical evidence backed by sales numbers is a more solid way to plan ahead.

 

Leica is trying to build a nice mousetrap for us to stay in but we just have to pay a higher rent

[mjh]

my mind boggles at the thought of a 75mm f1.0 it will probably cost an S2 and 3 lenses combined.

A 75 mm f1.4 would give you the same shallow depth of field as the Noctilux M would (though not the same speed, but that’s immaterial in a studio setting). MF lenses are generally not as fast as corresponding 35 mm lenses, and they don’t need to be just to achieve a shallow depth of field.

[haribo]

I know, my Rollei 6008 and the Sinar came with truly excellent kit lenses but I used a APO Macro Sironar 210f5.6 99% of the time.

 

My point was that they are parcelling out individual components. Kit lenses may or may not be used. My 80f2.8 was very rarely used. You cannot break down the usage easily.

 

Its a little hard to plan for an S2 75f1.0 noctilux if you do not know the demand for a particular lens. If you ask the forum users, they will answer with their hearts. AYE! Their wallets WILL speak a different vocabulary.

 

The 30-90 zoom might actually be a better best seller but my mind boggles at the thought of a 75mm f1.0 it will probably cost an S2 and 3 lenses combined.

 

Empirical evidence backed by sales numbers is a more solid way to plan ahead.

 

Leica is trying to build a nice mousetrap for us to stay in but we just have to pay a higher rent

 

Still it would be nice to get a free lens with the purchase. Like they other MF companies do!

[lxlim]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

A 75 mm f1.4 would give you the same shallow depth of field as the Noctilux M would (though not the same speed, but that’s immaterial in a studio setting). MF lenses are generally not as fast as corresponding 35 mm lenses, and they don’t need to be just to achieve a shallow depth of field.

 

Yes, that's true.

 

I have to rephrase, a 75mmf1.4 for MF boggles my mind. but bear in mind, it is pure speculation on my part.

[jaapv]

Free lens.. tanstaafl. The right word is not free, but included in the price.....

[haribo]

I know, my Rollei 6008 and the Sinar came with truly excellent kit lenses but I used a APO Macro Sironar 210f5.6 99% of the time.

 

My point was that they are parcelling out individual components. Kit lenses may or may not be used. My 80f2.8 was very rarely used. You cannot break down the usage easily.

 

Its a little hard to plan for an S2 75f1.0 noctilux if you do not know the demand for a particular lens. If you ask the forum users, they will answer with their hearts. AYE! Their wallets WILL speak a different vocabulary.

 

The 30-90 zoom might actually be a better best seller but my mind boggles at the thought of a 75mm f1.0 it will probably cost an S2 and 3 lenses combined.

 

Empirical evidence backed by sales numbers is a more solid way to plan ahead.

 

Leica is trying to build a nice mousetrap for us to stay in but we just have to pay a higher rent

 

Speaking of which ... Not sure if the promotion is still on ... but Hasselblad is was giving people who bought a H3DII-50 a similar HCD zoom lens for free. Pretty much for the same price as the S2 goes without a lens.

So 50mp instead of 37mp plus an outstanding HCD lens .... makes you wonder, doesn't it.

[lxlim]

Still it would be nice to get a free lens with the purchase. Like they other MF companies do!

 

And they probably will. Its how the market has been wired.

[haribo]

Free lens.. tanstaafl. The right word is not free, but included in the price.....

 

As I just posted in a reply to lxlim ... The promotion was a H3DII-50mp + HCD zoom (forgot the exact specs) for about the same price as the S2 goes without a lens.

Less than a month ago, here in Toronto, Canada.

 

Don't tell me Hasselblad/Fuji HCD lenses are that much inferior to S2 lenses...... considering this I don't care if it's free or included in the price

[lxlim]

I...

Here's a test that everyone can make before buying an S2. Once some full res samples are released, print them to a fairly large size, say 16x20. Then scale the files to half size and reprint them and see how much detail you lose.

...

.

 

Forgot to thank you about this test, Alan. I was wondering what specific things about the details does it tell me about the S2 that is not any different from a different camera's files.

 

I have a personal test to share I would shake the lenses I intend to buy. If they rattle it indicates a certain amount of play and hence potential for decentering to occur. Canon fixed focal L lenses have little to no rattling but their zooms:rolleyes: I might be wrong of course and it is a unscientific procedure.

 

Of course, I do intend to give the S2 lenses a "shakedown" but the sales guys might just bash me.

[lxlim]

Speaking of which ... Not sure if the promotion is still on ... but Hasselblad is was giving people who bought a H3DII-50 a similar HCD zoom lens for free. Pretty much for the same price as the S2 goes without a lens.

So 50mp instead of 37mp plus an outstanding HCD lens .... makes you wonder, doesn't it.

 

I love the old hasselblads. Never owned one but played with my bosses' and friends' cameras. They build great cameras but the form factor is not for me.

 

However it does sound like a great deal even if I am not interested, there is likely a lot who are.

[lxlim]

Free lens.. tanstaafl. The right word is not free, but included in the price.....

 

Ahh, its all in the wording and perspectives are changed. Don't you love the carefully dignified way prestige is maintained?

[lxlim]

As I just posted in a reply to lxlim ... The promotion was a H3DII-50mp + HCD zoom (forgot the exact specs) for about the same price as the S2 goes without a lens.

Less than a month ago, here in Toronto, Canada.

 

Don't tell me Hasselblad/Fuji HCD lenses are that much inferior to S2 lenses...... considering this I don't care if it's free or included in the price

 

I do have a "good enough" category that I apply to many areas in my business and I can fully agree with you there.

[marknorton]

I'm wondering what the reaction in the Hasselblad, Mamiya, Phase camps is: quaking in their boots, breathing a sigh of relief or didn't care before and don't care now.

[R10dreamer]

I'm wondering what the reaction in the Hasselblad, Mamiya, Phase camps is: quaking in their boots, breathing a sigh of relief or didn't care before and don't care now.

 

I would think that Hasselblad, Mamiya and Phase are happy. Leica's price structure p/pixel doesn't threaten them at all and they have years of equipment and accessory advantages over Leica. And then there is the future upgrade path. Argue all you want, there will always be technical upgrades in the digital era and Leica is landlocked with the S2.

 

At this moment, I have dropped any plans of buying an S2 (for many reasons) and am leaning towards Hasselblad or Phase. I just don't like how I have been treat by Leica with their R?? decision and now their pricing, service, lens cost of their S2. I don't need jewelry. I need equipment that gets the job done.

[LeicaS2]

Those of you who are concerned the s2 will sell so poorly that all Leica will fall, have gotten my attention. Therefore to insure Leica will not fall in the next year, I plan to personally buyout the first quarter production which is equivalent to the first years sales in the USA. How many S2 bodies is that? A mere 250 cameras. I personally will insure Leica will be OK for the first year as a gift to any of you who are worried for Leica's survival. This will cost me $6 million but consider it just helping you out. And speaking of out, the numbers are so small in annual sales that Leica would have been nuts to cut the price, as this camera will be sold out by December at this price.

[mjh]

Still it would be nice to get a free lens with the purchase. Like they other MF companies do!

No MF vendor (no camera vendor at all, for that matter) is giving away lenses for free. Hasselblad, for example, are bundling all their H3DII cameras with the HC 2.8/80 mm. While the H3DII-31 bundle was offered for about 11,995 Euro (plus VAT), Hasselblad Germany was offering the camera without the lens for 9,995 Euro, so the price of the “free” lens was 2000 Euro. You can get that lens on its own for 1630 Euro now.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[adan]

@Harald Benz: I might just point out that with the CFV-39 back for classic Hassy bodies, (or the predecessor CFV and CFV-II) one can shoot Zeiss glass with a Hassy back with full functionality (no adapter or separate shutter cocking needed)

 

CFV-39 is square format at 29 Mpixels or (about) 36 x 48 @ 39 Mpixels. CFV-39

 

So Zeiss glass with a Hassy-built back and camera is as easy as ever. Even 1962 Zeiss glass.

 

---------

 

I will also add that I've actually held the Hassy HD3 - it is heavy and clumsy compared to the S2 form-factor and weight - heck, it is heavier and clumsier than a "classic" blad, and doesn't even shoot a full 6x6 format (and never can - talk about limited upgrade possibilities!).

 

37 Mpixels + 1/500th strobe sync with real studio flash equipment + real hand-holdable capability + 1.5 fps. Besides the S2, list the cameras that compete in all those categories. Then we can compare prices.