Walker Posted July 29, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Today I received my "old" M8 from Solms with a new sensor. The original had somehow got a scratch, turning up in files as a thin line. To those who may wonder: the total costs added to about 1250 Euros (including postage and Norwegian taxes). Not a fortune, but an annoying expense all the same. The damage must have come about during cleaning the sensor, and herein lies a lesson because: - This M8 alternates with an M8.2, which means I hardly ever change lenses. Therefore, the sensor is seldom exposed to dust from the outside. - When cleaning, I have strictly followed the guidelines for wet cleaning, using only the very best materials. Still, there seems to have been a very hard particle trapped between the sensor and the swab (in spite of first brushing with "butterfly" etc.), resulting in a scratch. Actually, all the dirt I have removed from Leica sensors have been oily, and probably stem from the camera itself. This is what irritates me the most about this affair, as I feel some production issues are transferred to the consumer to worry about. After this experience, I have decided not to do any sensor cleaning myself. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 29, 2009 Posted July 29, 2009 Hi Walker, Take a look here Cost of renewing sensor. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted July 29, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 29, 2009 Today I received my "old" M8 from Solms with a new sensor. The original had somehow got a scratch, turning up in files as a thin line.To those who may wonder: the total costs added to about 1250 Euros (including postage and Norwegian taxes). Not a fortune, but an annoying expense all the same. I'd say that's pretty steep, and would need to be borne in mind if buying a three or four year old M8 in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brill64 Posted July 29, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 29, 2009 please don't take offense, your thread is very unfortunate and I feel sorry for you but you are going to have to get right back into the driving seat regarding cleaning the sensors again at some point. They're going to get dirty. follow each step slowly and examine the sensor with a visible dust illuminated sensor loupe prior to putting anything inside and you'll be fine! the swabs are usually individually sealed but make sure your arctic butterfly is given a good clean and also doesn't touch the sensor. make sure that your surrounding work surfaces where you're picking cleaning things up and putting them down are free of dust and dirt. it will be fine, you can do it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 29, 2009 Actually it would take a very hard piece/partical of dust/substance and improper cleaning method, way to much presser on the swap, to scratch any type of "Glass". I'll continue to clean my own sensors with the method I've been using for a few years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 29, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 29, 2009 Actually it would take a very hard piece/partical of dust/substance and improper cleaning method, way to much presser on the swap, to scratch any type of "Glass". Shootist - can you point me to the scientific papers that you base that opinion on please? I'm sure you wouldn't make such a sweeping statement (pretty much implying that the OP is lying) without at the very least having some factual backup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 29, 2009 Shootist - can you point me to the scientific papers that you base that opinion on please? I'm sure you wouldn't make such a sweeping statement (pretty much implying that the OP is lying) without at the very least having some factual backup. "Glass" is a very hard substance, one of the hardest in nature. That is why they use diamond inbedded wheels to cut it and you must use a fair amount of force on those diamond wheels to scratch the glass. So for the "Glass" cover plate of the M8 sensor to become scratched the piece/partical of whatever was on it or in/on the swap had to be as hard or harder then glass and the force applies to the swap had to be fairly strong. Simple logic. Have you ever watched the wiper blades go back and forth over your car windshield with whatever may be on the blades in the first place and then wipe off whatever was on the windshield? And does it leave a multitude of noticeable scratches on the glass. This is the first report that I have heard of where the cover glass of any sensor actually got scratched. There has been some reports of people breaking the cover glass and that too was from improper cleaning methods, to much presssure. In most of the posts/reports where people thought they had scratched the glass cover of any camera sensor it turned out to be some type of substance on the glass that got smeared across it looking like a scratch. There was one guy that use scotch tape to clean off the dust on the sensor of his Nikon camera. Then he noticed a mark/line on the sensor that normal wet cleaning would not get rid of. After many wet/wet/wet cleanings the mark was gone. It was tape residue on the sensor which got smeared into a line after a wet cleaning. I don't think he uses scotch tape anymore. So my statement may be sweeping, just what is a sweeping statement, but it is true. Try google "Hardness of glass". Whether the OP is lying, I never said anything like that, why would he lie? He just paid for a new sensor. I personally would keep that info to myself. Whether or not he really needed a new sensor is still in question, IMHO. Did he try many wet/wet/wet cleanings? Did he use something else then a normal magnifying glass to look at the sensor or take it somepleace that could look at it under a microscope of some type. Yes now I am saying Leica was very happy to replace his sensor and it is not known if they themselves tried to clean off whatever may have been on the original or if they even had a real good look at it. That's one way to generate some income. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric_bowles Posted July 29, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 29, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Maybe that saffire glass belongs in front of the sensor instead of the LCD.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 29, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 29, 2009 And the simple precaution: before any sensor cleaning, give it a blow with the Rocket Blower or similar. Sensorbrushes etc are fine, but the simple blowing away of minute grains of sand and the like - and sand may contain extremely hard materials- is just a matter of less than a second. I cannot say I find the repair cost excessive, the price of sensor and motherboard cannot be low, there is a lot of work involved, the camera will have to be virtually rebuilt and fully adjusted. And Norwegian taxes are not the lowest in the world. On the plus side, a year's guarantee on the whole camera and a perfectly adjusted one too, I wager. Didn't insurance cover this? Mine would. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 29, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 29, 2009 "Glass" is a very hard substance, one of the hardest in nature....So my statement may be sweeping, just what is a sweeping statement, but it is true. Try google "Hardness of glass". I googled "Hardness of glass" and got a very varied response of mostly irrelevant links. The ones that were relevant seemed to rate glass as not particularly hard at all - the most relevant near the top of the list had this to say about glass: "Another clue to relative hardness is ease of scratching (both diamond and quartz scratch glass, but diamond scratches glass ". . . like a knife through butter")." note: "like a knife through butter". Anyway, the brief look I took at other links (I'm not that interested in this topic really - other than that the sensor of my M8 seems to attract more dirt than any other digital sensor I've ever used), suggested that glass comes in all sorts of hardness, and when I put 'camera sensor' into the google mix it seems like the number of people with scratched sensors isn't that uncommon. From Luminous Landscape: "With the right tools cleaning this piece of glass is no more dangerous than cleaning your lens' front element. But, the sensor is awkwardly located, and if you use the wrong tools you can scratch the surface of this filter or glass plate, which can lead to a costly repair. If you're fumble fingered you can also scratch the mirror or ground glass." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 29, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 29, 2009 The scratch would not be on the glass anyway, but on the coating on that glass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted July 29, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 29, 2009 I would ask Leica for the M9 a removable sensor that can be washed in a dishwasher! THAT would be a cool gimme, guys! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 29, 2009 The scratch would not be on the glass anyway, but on the coating on that glass. I don't think there is a coating on the front, touchable, part of the coverglass on the M8. I know there was on the Canon 5D as some people experienced the deterioration of that coating. Reading the Photo Solutions page on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 29, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 29, 2009 Just look at the sensor - that greenish sheen is coating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 29, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 29, 2009 I don't think there is a coating on the front, touchable, part of the coverglass on the M8.I know there was on the Canon 5D as some people experienced the deterioration of that coating. Reading the Photo Solutions page on it. So this thread turned into a M8 > 5D again! Anyway, walking in the lovely sunshine to get my sushi here today I idly looked at car windscreens I was passing, and noticed they're actually covered in a multitude of tiny micro-scratches, as is the glass of water I have beside me. I personally don't think glass is so resistant to scratching, at all. But still, my main issue is that when these sorts of posts come around there'll always be someone who jumps up and says 'that's not possible with the M8 - you must've done it yourself' or 'that was user error'. Unless proved to the contrary, I feel we owe it to the OP to take his word for it. Just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 29, 2009 So this thread turned into a M8 > 5D again! Anyway, walking in the lovely sunshine to get my sushi here today I idly looked at car windscreens I was passing, and noticed they're actually covered in a multitude of tiny micro-scratches, as is the glass of water I have beside me. I personally don't think glass is so resistant to scratching, at all. But still, my main issue is that when these sorts of posts come around there'll always be someone who jumps up and says 'that's not possible with the M8 - you must've done it yourself' or 'that was user error'. Unless proved to the contrary, I feel we owe it to the OP to take his word for it. Just my opinion. Just what is your problem???? I mention a Canon 5d and you spout off with "This thread is turning into another Canon V Leica thread. Well just how else can the sensor cover glass get scratched? Other then user error in cleaning it or touching it with something? I don't see any posts in this thread that is doubting the sensor got scratched, or looked like it was scratched, and that it needed to be replaced and that is was done at the cost stated. I think for some reason you have a problem with me. Maybe it just my paranoia or maybe it's you so I'll put you on my ignore list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 29, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 29, 2009 I don't think there is a coating on the front, touchable, part of the coverglass on the M8. According to Kodak’s specs, there is. Not to mention that the anti-reflective coating is easily visible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted July 29, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 29, 2009 According to Kodak’s specs, there is. Not to mention that the anti-reflective coating is easily visible. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 29, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 29, 2009 Today I received my "old" M8 from Solms with a new sensor. The original had somehow got a scratch, turning up in files as a thin line.To those who may wonder: the total costs added to about 1250 Euros (including postage and Norwegian taxes). Not a fortune, but an annoying expense all the same. The damage must have come about during cleaning the sensor, and herein lies a lesson because: - This M8 alternates with an M8.2, which means I hardly ever change lenses. Therefore, the sensor is seldom exposed to dust from the outside. - When cleaning, I have strictly followed the guidelines for wet cleaning, using only the very best materials. Still, there seems to have been a very hard particle trapped between the sensor and the swab (in spite of first brushing with "butterfly" etc.), resulting in a scratch. Actually, all the dirt I have removed from Leica sensors have been oily, and probably stem from the camera itself. This is what irritates me the most about this affair, as I feel some production issues are transferred to the consumer to worry about. After this experience, I have decided not to do any sensor cleaning myself. William There was a post regarding sensor cleaning some months ago in which I recommended that the camera be sent to Leica for the job and I got lambasted for suggesting it on this forum. After 16 years of retail photography sales I saw too many people damaging their sensors by trying to do it themselves to the point that I wouldn't recommend any of the sensor cleaning methods we sold. Sensors are extremely delicate and should be cleaned by a factory trained technician. I'm sorry this happened to you but like it or not this is an example of trying to save some money gone awry. I use a Hurricane hand air blower on mine and if the spots get to be more than I want to deal with in PS it goes to the factory for cleaning where they assume liability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted July 29, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 29, 2009 Just what is your problem????I mention a Canon 5d and you spout off with "This thread is turning into another Canon V Leica thread. Well just how else can the sensor cover glass get scratched? Other then user error in cleaning it or touching it with something? I don't see any posts in this thread that is doubting the sensor got scratched, or looked like it was scratched, and that it needed to be replaced and that is was done at the cost stated. I think for some reason you have a problem with me. Maybe it just my paranoia or maybe it's you so I'll put you on my ignore list. Hilarious stuff. Seriously. Anyway, just in case I'm not on the ignore list just yet, the point mjh is making is the opposite of what you were saying above. According to Kodak’s specs, there is. Not to mention that the anti-reflective coating is easily visible. Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share #20 Posted July 29, 2009 Hi all, I think there has been several interesting and instructive responses to my opening post. I think the issue of sensor cleaning is important enough to clarify a couple of things. First of all, posts in forums like this will always have to be taken at face value. Since few of us know each other personally that must be so. In view of this I just stated the facts (and some personal views) as a reminder to be careful. Nothing else. Next: I have been cleaning sensors on DMR, and M8s since 2007 (I bought one of the first cameras sold in Norway), and it has worked well up until now. I even posted a procedure for cleaning sensors in this forum a year ago What worries me now is that problems may develop in spite of taking all precautions available (believe me I did). Better then to let technicians take the risk. I suspect they also may meet problems from time to time, but their costs are much smaller. Anyway - we all choose our own tactics in this matter, and I think it is instructive to know what others do. I cannot understand why a thing like this should be kept to oneself, as one poster remarked. Without sharing experiences there would be no communal learning. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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