Misc. ramblings

[Peter41951]

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You get the picture... i'm nervous.

 

The loyalists are trying to work around the problems for the moment and I don't think any loyalist will let Leica off the hook, and too much passion about the problems won't get them fixed any quicker.

 

I take your point about performance pre and post fix but remain convinced (or hopeful) that Leica will solve the problem without loss of performance.

 

My problem as an amateur would be the increased cost of filters and coding for all my lenses, making the total outlay too much, but my fingers are remaining crossed.

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[plasticman]

Hey mani, I havent seen you posting anything for a while over at photo. You still got the DLux2? Hows it travelling?

 

Dlux2 has been a little neglected recently - for some reason (and i'm sure i'm not alone), a lot of my errm photographic 'energy' has been channeled into imagining the pictures i was gonna be taking with my sexy black M8 and Noctilux.

 

And thereby the great disappointment... :-(

[brucek]

My problem as an amateur would be the increased cost of filters and coding for all my lenses, making the total outlay too much, but my fingers are remaining crossed.

 

I think the coding is a red herring. I can think of no reason why coded lenses would be required when using an IR Cut filter. The lack of coding doesn't seem to be hurting Guy's pictures at all. (At least, I'm assuming his lenses are not all coded...)

 

Bruce

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Bruce we may need it past 24mm and going wider i am getting a cyan cast in the corners so not sure how they will deal with that. Otherwise the coding has not proved anything to me yet except TTL flash stuff which i have been using A mode on the DMR all this time and it has worked great. As much as the filters are getting the job done at least we have that for now but a better final soluion needs to come into play. Buying 800 dollars worth of filters has put a dent in my bank account and this may hurt a lot of folks getting into this

[Zurenborger]

I have been so looking forward to the M8. It is my turning point for going digital. I did try the DMR at one stage but wasn't impressed to much, this was mainly due to it's size and weight.

 

I had 3 lenses coded, and finally received my pre-ordered M8 yesterday morning. I have been following all the posts on the subject of the M8 in the past week and have not yet been turned off the idea.

 

I have made an arrangement with the supplier that I can test it out for a period of 2 weeks and still decide to return it along with 28mm I bought with it. If no solution is available and the stated flaws do effect me I will switch to the Canon 5D and use my R lenses and probably buy a nice canon zoom lens.

 

I am still figuring out the digital work flow in order to make proper judgment.

I am a bit concerned for 80% of it's usage will be taking indoor pictures of object of art, mostly in a studio with 3 studio ballooned flashes and a backlight, naturally the colour rendition must be perfect and fully natural.

 

I rely on Leica on providing a solution, I had electrical problems with my R8 and it got solved, I had similar problems with my M7 and was able to change it to an MP.

 

My first impresion on the M8 is thats it's not that bad, at least I haven't seen anything unnatural yet, but then again I have only had it for 24hrs. and just made some snappers.

 

However what I do find here on the forum that everyone is winding everyone up which is of no use, but this has been mentioned multiple times before, I do find some constructive information but most is of no use what so ever.

I was hoping to find info and posts on professional digital photography with the M8, but perhaps this is yet to come.

[sdai]

Was not the weak IR filter a deliberate design decision instead of a bug??? A trade-off to get the file quality they are getting otherwise?

 

I guess that WAS the case from the very beginning ... otherwise people won't be able to tell its differences from the pictures taken by a D80, A100 or a 400D.

[jojosung]

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I think the coding is a red herring. I can think of no reason why coded lenses would be required when using an IR Cut filter. The lack of coding doesn't seem to be hurting Guy's pictures at all. (At least, I'm assuming his lenses are not all coded...)

 

Bruce

 

I wonder if the coding has to do with Kodak Sensor Flaw.

 

Look at DPReview, for Kodak SLR/C

 

the lens optimization eliminate the color cast along the edges of the photo. The degree of the color cast is dependent upon the type of lens use.

[fotografr]

James--Your statement is very well reasoned and I agree with you (almost) completely. I would put most of the commentors about M8 problems into two camps. I think there are some who feel the best course is to keep intense pressure on Leica by repeatedly pointing out that the camera was released prematurely and has serious flaws that have to be worked out. In the other camp, which is where I would put myself, are people who agree there were mistakes made and that problems exist with the camera, but who would rather, at this point, give Leica some space to solve the problems without making this more of a PR nightmare than it already is. There are advantages and disadvantages to both points of view.

 

You mentioned a couple of quotes from individuals who indicated that they could live with the camera's problems the way it is. I really think those people are in the extreme minority, and they are certainly not people who need to use the M8 in a professional capacity. Nearly everyone participating in this forum and everyone at Leica are in complete agreement that the only acceptable course of action is to work out the bugs.

 

For anyone to have the idea that Leica, by now, don't understand the seriousness of these quality issues is quite naive. I think everyone in Solms fully comprehends the ramifications and I have to believe there are no lights being turned out at Leica overnight these days.

 

I'm still waiting for delivery of my M8 and am still very excited about the prospects of using it with my M lenses. Until the issues with image quality are resolved, I will likely just use it for pleasure rather than as a professional tool, but I will, through private communications, keep pressure on Leica to make my camera perform the way it should. In the meantime, I am seeing a lot of smashing photographs made with the M8 and hope to see many more.

[sean_reid]

Leica's biggest problem for me is that if their engineers long ago determined that optimum image quality was best achieved by a thin IR sensor cover and the use of external filters, this information should have been communicated right at the outset of the M8's launch.

 

I agree entirely with that comment and have told Leica the same.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I am afraid i have that fear too. Maybe i am just a worrier, can't help it.

It is curious, though, that Epson could put out a digital m without such extreme IR problems. Not exactly the most famed camera maker, Epson. If they can do it, why can't Leica?

We keep hearing that the m8 project is state-of-the-art innovation. But it is not, really. Epson were the innovators. i-d have thought Leica could have learned heaps from the Rd-1.

 

The Epson filters IR more but uses a smaller sensor sacrifices corner performance with many wide lenses. There was no free lunch for Epson. I speak from very extensive experience testing and working with the R-D1 over the past two years.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sdai]

Leica's biggest problem for me is that if their engineers long ago determined that optimum image quality was best achieved by a thin IR sensor cover and the use of external filters, this information should have been communicated right at the outset of the M8's launch.

 

I'm afraid that changes were still being made at a very late stage, Ian. In fact, I've seen a pre-release spec sheet in which the color depth of the M8 was clearly specified as 16-bit and it wasn't till three weeks ago when all in sudden we discovered the DNG files are actually 8-bit.

[hammam]

The DNG files are 8-bit? Are you serious? Isn't this path of disappointments going to end one day?

 

Now, if Leica knowingly went the trade-off route of sacrificing a good LPF for a better "image quality", what will the cure be? Sacrifice "image quality" for a better LPF? That's another scary prospect, and a solution I don't think Leica can afford. Just being the nice little, well-built and stealthy Leica M digital rangefinder so many of us dreamed of is not enough. Not with the price of Leica glass, anyway, and the high hopes the sole name Leica elicits. We want impeccable Leica imaging. Therefore - though I have no knowledge of those highly technical things - I'm afraid we're looking at a complete overhaul of the M8, software and sensor, if we want both image quality and no purple casts and no streaking. Can Leica do that? At what costs? Couldn't they do it from the start? Did they think Leica customers would just put up wit the flaws and the filter band-aid?

 

I have cancelled my order at my dealer once, and then I changed my mind because I really, really want an M8. I already shoot Nikon DSLRs, but the M8 is something entirely different. And I already made a huge deposit in the form of gear I traded in. I am keeping my order for a mid-december delivery of my M8, because my enthusiasm is still a bit higher than my disappointments and fears. But barely so.

[stunsworth]

Olivier, there was a long - and for me at times impenetrable :-) - thread about this a while ago.

 

My understanding, and I'm more that happy to be corrected, was that the sensor was 14 bits but the value stored in the RAW file was the square root of the value coming off the sensor. This meant that the 14 bit value (or perhaps the 14 bit value padded out to 16 bits) could be stored in an 8 bit file. Opening up the RAW file then converted these square root values back to the original values.

 

The conclusion as I understood it was that any rounding errors caused by this process were likely to be minor, but the files were smaller.

 

I stand waiting to be corrected on the above :-)

[palaeoboy]

I have noticed several people worried about what path to take with regards to their M8's. Quality and loyalty issues aside as I agree release of the camera in this manner was not good. The logical course if it were me in any of the given situations would be as follows.

 

1/ If you havent got your M8 yet, cancel the order and re-apply when the full solution has been presented. Rather than abusive way of going about things this will also send Leica a polite message to get it right if they want to regain those sales.

 

2/ If you have already received and are prepared to keep the camera even if the only fix available to you at the end is filters and lens coding, then your choice is clear, hang on to it.

 

3/ If you are not prepared to accept the camera if you have to use external filters and lens coding (not all lenses can be coded either, what no 40mm Summicrons on M8's!!) then I would advise you to return the camera as soon as possible. Even if Leica comes up with an alternate solution to filters and coding you will have to part with your camera anyways, best you return now just in case that option vanishes with the little window of opportunity to return it closes up. Then if the fix that comes later is to your liking then re-order the camera again, and if it isnt then you dont have a camera that used filters you didnt want to use.

 

I doubt if the fix is a few weeks away, I dare say its 6 months at a guess. If you're one that has returned it for the above reasons, your nice new coded lenses can be used on that old M2 with film till the finished M8 product is available again. Try to avoid the "Veruca Salt Sydnrome - Daddy I want it now!!" and you will most assuredly be less disapponted. My advice wont help 100% of people here but I hope this helps at least one person from stressing. Lifes too short and stressing shortens it further and I want to talk to you all for many years to come.

[ptomsu]

I'm afraid that changes were still being made at a very late stage, Ian. In fact, I've seen a pre-release spec sheet in which the color depth of the M8 was clearly specified as 16-bit and it wasn't till three weeks ago when all in sudden we discovered the DNG files are actually 8-bit.

 

Folks,

 

please say this is NOT true that M8 produces only 8bit .....

 

This would definitely end all my interest in this camera if not in the M system as such, since my future is clearly digital!

 

Peter

[ptomsu]

I have noticed several people worried about what path to take with regards to their M8's. Quality and loyalty issues aside as I agree release of the camera in this manner was not good. The logical course if it were me in any of the given situations would be as follows.

 

1/ If you havent got your M8 yet, cancel the order and re-apply when the full solution has been presented. Rather than abusive way of going about things this will also send Leica a polite message to get it right if they want to regain those sales.

 

2/ If you have already received and are prepared to keep the camera even if the only fix available to you at the end is filters and lens coding, then your choice is clear, hang on to it.

 

3/ If you are not prepared to accept the camera if you have to use external filters and lens coding (not all lenses can be coded either, what no 40mm Summicrons on M8's!!) then I would advise you to return the camera as soon as possible. Even if Leica comes up with an alternate solution to filters and coding you will have to part with your camera anyways, best you return now just in case that option vanishes with the little window of opportunity to return it closes up. Then if the fix that comes later is to your liking then re-order the camera again, and if it isnt then you dont have a camera that used filters you didnt want to use.

 

I doubt is the fix is a few weeks away, I dare say its 6 months away at a guess. If you're one that has returned it for the above reasons, your nice new coded lenses can be used on that old M2 with film till the finished M8 product is available again. Hope this helps at least one person from stressing. Lifes too short and stressing shortens it further and I want to talk to you all for many years to come.

 

 

ad 1) - I think that time to send polite mesages is OVER !!! This is worse than a disaster!

 

Sorry, but if this continues, this will end Leica.

[carstenw]

Don't worry Peter, plenty of rude messages have been sent too, and lots of messages are sent every day. No need for lots of posts about it here.

 

The files are 8-bit, according to all sensible examinations, but the intriguing thing is that the 8-bits are not evenly distributed over the tonal values. I don't think Leica has ever sacrificed image quality--in the history of the company--for the sake of price, expediency or anything else, so I think the best thing to do is to wait until technical people have made the proper tests and conclusions.

 

In spite of all the negative points--and I recognise that there are plenty--there are still owners posting every day, saying that the files are the best-looking digital files they have ever seen. There is a thread about printing 30"x40" prints from the M8, and they are turning out beautifully. This from a printer who handles several of the most famous photographers in the world today.

 

As much as I am disappointed, I think that there is plenty room for cautious optimism here. Leica has already overcome several difficult design problems to produce some of the best digital images made with *any* camera. Let's give them some room to fix the remaining problems.

 

Personally, if the files are really as good as we hear--and my M8 is in for focus adjustment, so I can't verify--then I am quite prepared to sacrifice my no-filter religion, if that is what it takes to get the camera back in my hands, taking pictures with it.

[fpbender]

Trust!

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[hammam]

I have noticed several people worried about what path to take with regards to their M8's. Quality and loyalty issues aside as I agree release of the camera in this manner was not good. The logical course if it were me in any of the given situations would be as follows.

 

1/ If you havent got your M8 yet, cancel the order and re-apply when the full solution has been presented. Rather than abusive way of going about things this will also send Leica a polite message to get it right if they want to regain those sales.

 

2/ If you have already received and are prepared to keep the camera even if the only fix available to you at the end is filters and lens coding, then your choice is clear, hang on to it.

 

3/ If you are not prepared to accept the camera if you have to use external filters and lens coding (not all lenses can be coded either, what no 40mm Summicrons on M8's!!) then I would advise you to return the camera as soon as possible. Even if Leica comes up with an alternate solution to filters and coding you will have to part with your camera anyways, best you return now just in case that option vanishes with the little window of opportunity to return it closes up. Then if the fix that comes later is to your liking then re-order the camera again, and if it isnt then you dont have a camera that used filters you didnt want to use.

 

I doubt if the fix is a few weeks away, I dare say its 6 months at a guess. If you're one that has returned it for the above reasons, your nice new coded lenses can be used on that old M2 with film till the finished M8 product is available again. Try to avoid the "Veruca Salt Sydnrome - Daddy I want it now!!" and you will most assuredly be less disapponted. My advice wont help 100% of people here but I hope this helps at least one person from stressing. Lifes too short and stressing shortens it further and I want to talk to you all for many years to come.

 

Are you telling me that the 40 Summicron can't be coded? That's the only lens I have left!

[palaeoboy]

"Are you telling me that the 40 Summicron can't be coded? That's the only lens I have left!"

 

Yes unfortunately it was not one on their list of lenses to be coded. It appears only current models can and the previous series, the old 70's 40mm doesnt get a coding option along with most of the older lenses. Shame too as the 40mm Summicron would have made the perfect 50mm after the crop factor and more compact than the real 50mm Summicron. Lets hope the IR fix will be an internal one. The bad side of this is those cheap prices of the 40's will be a thing of the past.