andybarton Posted July 14, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 14, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just take a mount off the back of an R lens, and replace it with a Leitax. I have been to the factory, and seen the people putting lenses together. But, until you have dismantled one, and seen the fabulous workmanship and engineering inside one of these things, it's hard to believe it for yourself. And the size of the screws with which they are held together... Really impressed me this afternoon. Kudos to them, I have to say. Especially doing this kind of fine work, day in, day out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 14, 2009 Posted July 14, 2009 Hi andybarton, Take a look here If you want to know why Leica lenses are so expensive. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tomasis7 Posted July 14, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 14, 2009 thats why I pay higher prices for Leica gladly It is not only hand labour, also the selection of material which makes price so high. For therapeutic reason, I sometimes rotate lenses for no reason Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Esslinger Posted July 14, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 14, 2009 For therapeutic reason, I sometimes rotate lenses for no reason So do I but there are significant differences between the lenses: My 80-200 is so loosely fit that focus changes whenever it is not in a horizontal position. And the aperture rings of my different M lenses range from very loose (brand new 50 summilux) to very tight (brand new 28 elmarit). In both cases ok according to Leica so I accept it as a consequence of manual labour. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted July 14, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 14, 2009 To be fair even the semi automatic assembly of a mass produced Canikon lens is quite amazing. See the videos in Canon's Virtual Lens Plant. But yes, the Leicas are works of art without question: beautiful to look at as well as through! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyfreund Posted July 15, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 15, 2009 What is this term "Leitax"? I've seen it here recently and have no idea what it means. Thanks! T Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted July 15, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 15, 2009 What is this term "Leitax"? I've seen it here recently and have no idea what it means. Thanks!T Go to leitax.com. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 15, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The wonders of Google.... Leica & Pentax & Nikon | Leitax Replacement mounts (not adapters) that allow use of Leica lenses on Pentax (originally) and now Nikon bodies with full range of focus (but no auto-aperture). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman Villain Posted July 15, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 15, 2009 But yes, the Leicas are works of art without question: beautiful to look at as well as through! I couldn't agree more Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 16, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 16, 2009 The real reason that Leica lenses (and other Leica componentry) are so expensive is that the German craftspeople that put them together get paid a decent rate. I think the best German term is "Feinmechaniker" or precision engineers. Leica has resisted the temptation of shifting production offshore just to reduce labor costs. Some interesting links here! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted July 16, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) The real reason that Leica lenses (and other Leica componentry) are so expensive is that the German craftspeople that put them together get paid a decent rate. thats a pretty superficial assessment. The Japanese still assemble their premium products in Japan, where incomes are typically higher than in Germany. Average employee costs at Leica were well below average German rates last time I to checked. By no means all Leica products are even made in Germany, not even all of Leica's own production is in Germany..... oh, and they dont make everything themselves either..... Edited July 16, 2009 by guywalder Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernando_b Posted July 16, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 16, 2009 Andy: "the fabulous workmanship and engineering inside one of these things, it's hard to believe it for yourself" I fully agree with you. Thomas: "thats why I pay higher prices for Leica" I don't agree. The sources of MORE THAN HALF of the cost are three: taxes, taxes and taxes. Had you the chance to se their cost in duty free shops? LESS THAN HALF! Fernando. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 16, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 16, 2009 thats a pretty superficial assessment. Oh really? Then what are you paying for exactly? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted July 16, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 16, 2009 Oh really? Then what are you paying for exactly? ?? you mean apart from the exotic glass formulations they buy from Schott? or the expensive brass they use? or the salaries of the sales and marketing team, etc etc The only business I can think of right now that provides labour and that is all you pay for are the dirt poor shoe reparierers I pass on India's streets. Lets not forget that in volume terms the majority of 'Leica' lenses are being manufactured in the far east by Panasonic. When badged as Leica these cost 25%+ more than when badged Leica. Is that because you are paying for expensive hand assembly by a German artisan? My guess is not. As far as the system camera lenses go, I think you might have confused the amount of manual labour with the rate of manual labour. Leica use a lot of manual labour, whether they pay well for it is a different matter. Based on the comparisons I posted above, I dont see the labour rate as being a particularly big factor. If you have different information, please share it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christer Posted July 16, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 16, 2009 [quote=fernando_b;966454 Had you the chance to se their cost in duty free shops? LESS THAN HALF! Fernando. Where is this duty free shop? "Merite le detour" as the Michelin guide says for good restaurants. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 16, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 16, 2009 I don't agree. The sources of MORE THAN HALF of the cost are three: taxes, taxes and taxes. Had you the chance to se their cost in duty free shops? LESS THAN HALF! Fernando. VAT in the UK is 15%, not 51%+, other European countries are similar. Where is this duty free shop? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 16, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 16, 2009 ??When badged as Leica these cost 25%+ more than when badged Leica! I take it you mean "when badged Panasonic"? A valid point. And yes, you pay for other associated business costs. But the cost of labor nevertheless makes a difference to the higher final sales price of many "made in Germany" items. How many Japanese products are exclusively made in Japan these days? Perhaps we should ask why many other electronic products -- especially computers -- are priced so high when they are made in China at the cheapest possible price? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 16, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Lets not forget that in volume terms the majority of 'Leica' lenses are being manufactured in the far east by Panasonic. When badged as Leica these cost 25%+ more than when badged Leica. Is that because you are paying for expensive hand assembly by a German artisan? My guess is not. I think you forget the amount of research, training and design that Leica inputs in these lenses. The basic parameters are set by Leica, the Japanese design team comes to Solms up to ten times for a weeks' instruction, and the measurement and finetuning are done by Leica. Edited July 16, 2009 by jaapv Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted July 16, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 16, 2009 I take it you mean "when badged Panasonic"? A valid point. And yes, you pay for other associated business costs. But the cost of labor nevertheless makes a difference to the higher final sales price of many "made in Germany" items. How many Japanese products are exclusively made in Japan these days? Perhaps we should ask why many other electronic products -- especially computers -- are priced so high when they are made in China at the cheapest possible price? I agree it makes a difference, its just not that high. I work for a German company, we manufacture in various different countries so we have direct comparisons... As I understand the Japanese do all of their top end camera and lens manufacturing in Japan, (as well as building lots of cost effective cars, and numerous other products, hence a very export led economy, like Germany). At risk of labouring the point, from the annual report cost of materials 65.4m Personnel expenses 40.9m (obviously not all for people assembling lenses) R&D expenditure 13.5m Total personnel expenses 34% of costs incidentally jaap, I didnt forget the input Leica has on Panasonics lenses, the same lenses are used in Panasonics cameras Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fernando_b Posted July 16, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 16, 2009 Christer and Steve, This was the shop (in the airport part for departures to outside of European Community) Photair, Frankfurt Airport Tel. +49 69 68601100 A list of some prices of R-lenses I saw in the year 2007 (in parentheses the cost in Milano shops of the same lens). I didn't believe it, so I took written note of them. 21-35 Vario Elmar, 1200 Euros (2850) 28 Elmarit 2nd version, 990 Euros (2615) 50 Summicron, 490 Euros (1150) 50 Summilux 2nd version, 980 Euros (2545) VAT is NOT THE ONLY TAX YOU PAY when you buy something, in the cost there are other taxes masked by different names, however taxes! Fernando. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted July 17, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 17, 2009 Interesting Guy, but I'd be curious to know how those figures compare with other manufacturers in percentage terms. When I last worked in Germany (in the media, way back in 1990) pay and conditions were very good. Holidays, especially! The philosophy was work to live, not vice versa. But things have changed and Germany has not been immune to the recession -- on top of the massive costs of rebuilding the eastern half of the country. Some of the new lens prices are not for the faint-hearted! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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