Guest Posto 6 Posted July 5, 2009 Share #1 Posted July 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) As demostrated by Leica's volte-face on the R10, Leica do not really have the resources and capacity to be able to effective compete in the production of digital 35mm equivalent bodies. Even the M8, already long in the tooth technology-wise, does not really have an assured future, particularly with FF not forthcoming soon and it's exhorbitant pricing. Leica's strengths are undoubtedly in their glass, together with their legacy mechanical camera range. However, as was amply demonstrated by the DMR, all is not necessarily lost- as technology progreeses and mutates, Leica could produce (or subcontract) digital backs for most of their M, Leicaflex and R bodies. Such backs would permit a quick technology update, and, with the rapidly increasing miniaturization of components, would in reality not be that much of a problem to make. This would, of course, also permit their glass business also to be put on a sounder footiing. Leica's misguided decision to ditch existing product ranges due to their inabilty to upgrade non-core (and easily out-sourceable) compoinents smacks of, at best, very muddled thinking, and must be addressed urgently if they wish to secure a viable future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 5, 2009 Posted July 5, 2009 Hi Guest Posto 6, Take a look here Digital R-Leica solutions. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marknorton Posted July 5, 2009 Share #2 Posted July 5, 2009 The muddled thinking seems to be concentrated around Rio de Janeiro, not Solms. The R10 was likely canned because the business case for it no longer stacked up, if it ever did. Like it or not, the R never achieved the sales expected and, when Leica last separated them out, accounted for about a quarter of M sales. We don't know but it may never have been profitable for them. Whatever Digital-R solution Leica are currently looking at, it must be difficult to commit significant development budget just to appease legacy R users, most of whom, in a fit of pique, will not adopt it anyway. Leica can best survive by occupying and exploiting niche markets of which the M and S2 are good examples. The moment they try to go head to head with Canon, Nikon, Sony will be when they lose the plot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 5, 2009 Share #3 Posted July 5, 2009 How would you fit a digital back to an M camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnastovall Posted July 5, 2009 Share #4 Posted July 5, 2009 I like my digital R solution. A full frame Canon body with R glass. A fine solution for my kind of shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 5, 2009 Share #5 Posted July 5, 2009 I would like to propose that there is a market for a non-AF digital R10 DSLR if it has the classic ergonomics: shutter dial, manual focus and aperture, manual ISO ring and a aperture priority mode. That combined with state of the art R-primes is a unique selling point for a small connaiseur market. I would expect not too small to make economic sense. Product range: P&S, compact with good quality glass - together with Panasonic retro ergonomics: M8, R10 (no AF!) as discussed above state of the art MF: S2 options 2 and 3 imply access to the best optics available on the market - with a no compromise approach to lens design. What is actually so tough making a R10? The R9 already exists, just replace the film back with a digital back using most of the stuff already in the M8 except use a FF Kodak CCD sensor? Note I am not promoting a "new" FF DMR. And also not a high ISO CMOS with live view etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted July 5, 2009 Share #6 Posted July 5, 2009 1-The muddled thinking seems to be concentrated around Rio de Janeiro, not Solms. 2-Whatever Digital-R solution Leica are currently looking at, it must be difficult to commit significant development budget just to appease legacy R users, most of whom, in a fit of pique, will not adopt it anyway. 3-Leica can best survive by occupying and exploiting niche markets of which the M and S2 are good examples. 1-Let's keep to facts rather than childish fits of pique on our discussions, otherwise it gets rather boring! 2-My argument is that Leica make their profits from lenses, NOT bodies, which serve to channel demand through to their optical products. Therefore, what is the point of killing of a range which could continue to sell- fashios, after all change, and they nearly killed off the M series when this appeared to "lose popularity"in the '70s. Therefore, they should do all possible to maintain demand for their lenses, finding innovative solutions so as to maintain their practicality. 3- Best of luck to them on the S2, but I would be quite surprised if the S-lenses sold in greater volume than R-lenses. 4- By replacing the back panel, a solution can be found to attach a suitable electronics package on all cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicanut2 Posted July 5, 2009 Share #7 Posted July 5, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Stephen is right look at how many people spent what 2700.00 for a canon 5d just so they can use R lenses. Also the adapters are hit or miss. At least on a leica body you know the R lenses would work. Do you really need auto focus? It is nice but you can see by Doug Herr's photos that you really do not need it to take some really fantastic pictures. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 5, 2009 Share #8 Posted July 5, 2009 1-Let's keep to facts rather than childish fits of pique on our discussions, otherwise it gets rather boring! 4- By replacing the back panel, a solution can be found to attach a suitable electronics package on all cameras. Yes, you're right its so simple! But of course a Leica M doesn't have a back panel, so it would entail cutting away most of the rear of the camera, the film gate, film mechanisim etc so that there would be space to align the sensor. How much do you think such a back would cost even if it were some how physically possible, and the cost of having Leica adapt you donor body, and the time it would take.............. You wanted to keep to facts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted July 5, 2009 Share #9 Posted July 5, 2009 Yes, you're right its so simple! But of course a Leica M doesn't have a back panel, so it would entail cutting away most of the rear of the camera, the film gate, film mechanisim etc so that there would be space to align the sensor. How much do you think such a back would cost even if it were some how physically possible, and the cost of having Leica adapt you donor body, and the time it would take.............. You wanted to keep to facts. Actually, by using the space where the film would go for the power cell, it should be feasible to make a replacemnet for trhe removeable back "door" which would house the rest of the required parts. I have in the past discussed this with a well-known and respected UK Leica repairman, who agreed that there do not appear to be any insurmountable problems for the M. In any event, the components could be standardized, with a custom-made mount for each camera model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 5, 2009 Share #10 Posted July 5, 2009 The muddled thinking seems to be concentrated around Rio de Janeiro, not Solms. The R10 was likely canned because the business case for it no longer stacked up, if it ever did. Like it or not, the R never achieved the sales expected and, when Leica last separated them out, accounted for about a quarter of M sales. We don't know but it may never have been profitable for them. Whatever Digital-R solution Leica are currently looking at, it must be difficult to commit significant development budget just to appease legacy R users, most of whom, in a fit of pique, will not adopt it anyway. Leica can best survive by occupying and exploiting niche markets of which the M and S2 are good examples. The moment they try to go head to head with Canon, Nikon, Sony will be when they lose the plot. Or maybe Leica just waited too long, and when they decided to get off the can, they found they were too far behind. With due respect to all the advocates and potential users of the S2, an R10 would have made much more sense, because of the existing customer base. But that's just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posto 6 Posted July 5, 2009 Share #11 Posted July 5, 2009 Stephen is right look at how many people spent what 2700.00 for a canon 5d just so they can use R lenses. Also the adapters are hit or miss. At least on a leica body you know the R lenses would work. Do you really need auto focus? It is nice but you can see by Doug Herr's photos that you really do not need it to take some really fantastic pictures. Jan Jan, also agree fully. Perhaps it would be feasible to make a "limited series" of these with Leica-R mounts as a stopgap, although Stephen's solution (above) would undoubtedly be the preferred outcome? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Esslinger Posted July 5, 2009 Share #12 Posted July 5, 2009 I would like to propose that there is a market for a non-AF digital R10 DSLR if it has the classic ergonomics: shutter dial, manual focus and aperture, manual ISO ring and a aperture priority mode. That combined with state of the art R-primes is a unique selling point for a small connaiseur market. I would expect not too small to make economic sense. Product range: P&S, compact with good quality glass - together with Panasonic retro ergonomics: M8, R10 (no AF!) as discussed above state of the art MF: S2 options 2 and 3 imply access to the best optics available on the market - with a no compromise approach to lens design. What is actually so tough making a R10? The R9 already exists, just replace the film back with a digital back using most of the stuff already in the M8 except use a FF Kodak CCD sensor? Note I am not promoting a "new" FF DMR. And also not a high ISO CMOS with live view etc. What would be the potential for such an R10 solution? Without FF I guess it would be close to zero, esp with a price tag of 7000 Euro +. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 5, 2009 Share #13 Posted July 5, 2009 The muddled thinking seems to be concentrated around Rio de Janeiro, not Solms. The R10 was likely canned because the business case for it no longer stacked up, if it ever did. Like it or not, the R never achieved the sales expected and, when Leica last separated them out, accounted for about a quarter of M sales. We don't know but it may never have been profitable for them. Whatever Digital-R solution Leica are currently looking at, it must be difficult to commit significant development budget just to appease legacy R users, most of whom, in a fit of pique, will not adopt it anyway. Leica can best survive by occupying and exploiting niche markets of which the M and S2 are good examples. The moment they try to go head to head with Canon, Nikon, Sony will be when they lose the plot. I agree with you here completely Mark I have just bought a D700 to use with my R glass (never liked Canons, since the AE-1). I would have bought an R10 (if it had been anywhere near a D700/5DII in price - which it wouldn't. As far as putting digital backs on old kit like SLs. How is that going to work? How could the back be coupled with the body - they need to "talk to each other" As for putting a digital back on a film M - the back would have to be as thin as a piece of film, so as to slide into the space where the film goes (apart from, again, the inability for the two parts to talk to each other. Film doesn't need to talk to the camera - it's entirely passive) For a million and one reasons, these solutions will never happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted July 5, 2009 Share #14 Posted July 5, 2009 What would be the potential for such an R10 solution? Without FF I guess it would be close to zero, esp with a price tag of 7000 Euro +.Kodak already makes and sells FF CCD sensors that can be used with essentially the same electronics as the M8. See here the KAF 31600 would be fine, the M8 uses the KAF10500 from the same series. So what you do is take the M8 electronics & shutter as the base, put in the KAF31600 & modify some peripheral components if neccesary & stuff this info the existing R9. If I recall correctly the M8 and R9 shutter are in fact the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 5, 2009 Share #15 Posted July 5, 2009 Imagek becomes SiliconFilm: Digital Photography Review Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 5, 2009 Share #16 Posted July 5, 2009 Alan That report is 10 years old and the product is yet to come to the market? I am sure that must tell us something... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgcd Posted July 5, 2009 Share #17 Posted July 5, 2009 Get a DMR, that's the ONLY R digital solution... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted July 5, 2009 Share #18 Posted July 5, 2009 I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a Canon body re-badged as a Leica with R-mount. I doubt that it would be a Nikon, since the flange focal distance between the F and R mounts is quite different. Imagine a partnership that is similar to the setup between Samsung / Pentax or Fuji / Nikon. Or we may finally see R glass in Canon EF mount, similar to the recently introduced Zeiss line. Maybe Leica will offer a mount conversion. Maybe Leica will go retro and upgrade the DMR with a new sensor? They could even offer a service to install a larger film gate in your R8/R9, so a full frame sensor could be used. But ultimately, who knows? It's anyones guess. This whole voyage has gone so far off course that all we can really do is sit and wait for what ever happens. But I do agree that there is no way that Leica can realistically produce a DSLR that can match Nikon/Canon in terms of price performance. But I will go on the record and say that a EVF R-mount camera is a stupid idea for many reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 5, 2009 Share #19 Posted July 5, 2009 I wouldn't be shocked if we saw a Canon body re-badged as a Leica with R-mount. I doubt that it would be a Nikon, since the flange focal distance between the F and R mounts is quite different. The Canon lacks mechanical connections between body and lens, so unless Canon design and install a mechanical system (which I'd think unlikely), there's only be stop down metering and no automatic diaphragm. That might satisfy the few masochists who are happy with an arrangement that was out of date in the 1960s, but it's not a mainstream solution. The flange difference btween the Nikon F and Leica R is actually very close not quite different. That's the reason you can't use R lenses on an F, there isn't enough space for the adaptor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 5, 2009 Share #20 Posted July 5, 2009 I will report on the Leitax solution when my mounts arrive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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