rick_dykstra Posted November 11, 2006 Share #1 Posted November 11, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Here's a possiblity. Leica could offer complimentary IR filters to current owners of M8s or those who order and pay a deposit for an M8 by the end of March 2007 - one for each lens that was purchased new by the owner (with a warranty card or receipts as proof). Leica could offer filters at a significant discount for lenses bought second hand (or new) until June 2007 provided such filters are purchased in conjunction with an M8 or a dealer sights a warranty card or receipt for an M8. Coding of lenses is offered at a discount until June 2007 provided it is arranged in conjuntion with an order for an M8 or a warranty card or receipt for an M8 is sighted by the dealer. Voila! Thoughts? Regards, Rick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 11, 2006 Posted November 11, 2006 Hi rick_dykstra, Take a look here So what will the magenta solution be? Technically and marketting?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LarryK Posted November 11, 2006 Share #2 Posted November 11, 2006 I think people are looking for a solution which does not require mounting a filter on every single lens they own! Regards, Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyper67 Posted November 11, 2006 Share #3 Posted November 11, 2006 I honestly don't feel the filter issue should in any way be a solution to the problem. Leica should recall the cameras and have the problem fixed in camera-period. Anything else and its NOT a solution-something I think that they will so since from the announcement issued I get the feeling that they have located the problem and are working on solutions. If they felt that this was a minor inconvinience thay would have stated that a filetr solution would be implemented. I think the negative impact that has come out of this - and I am sure the marketeers are trying to asses damage control here - nothing less will fly.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 11, 2006 Share #4 Posted November 11, 2006 Another one*: 1. Future owners will get a perfect body (of course). 2. Current owners will be offered a refund right now or a firmware update and/or a refurbished body asap. 3. In the meantime, current owners are suggested to use coded lenses and IR cut filters if they intend to shoot black materials or the like. 4. The best IR filters are Leica's (of course) and can be had at the competitive price of $xxx. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 11, 2006 Share #5 Posted November 11, 2006 Sorry, I disagree completely. This is making Leica's problem my problem. Fix the camera. Post an open letter of intent to do so at their expense. Inform the dealers of their actions and fax them their path to fixing the cameras as soon as a real solution is engineered. Leica needs to shift into "crisis mode", and even set up a hot swap crisis line of action ... giving professional photographers (like Guy and Sean for example) a priority status like Canon and major MF back makers do. For example, compared to this, I recently had an relatively small issue with a digital back. I had a "hot swap" new one the next day. Sorry for being so direct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivek Iyer Posted November 11, 2006 Share #6 Posted November 11, 2006 Marc, Your proposal makes sense if the camera is priced sensibly. For the current sale price, Leica ought to treat every buyer with the same priority. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phlogiston1 Posted November 11, 2006 Share #7 Posted November 11, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) This is a PR disaster. No question. I have just put my money down on a new Leica and I don't like to hear all this M8 product fault stuff. This is the first leica product I have bought in a long while and I did so because I thought Leica were on their way back from the brink. Now I'm not so sure. I'm just glad that Panasonic have their hand in my new camera. With all this talk about camera testers etc. can you possibly imagine Canon ( I own 5D & 30D) or Nikon ever releasing a camera with these major problems. I know that Canon and Nikon have released bug fixes for many of their digital cameras but this seems far worse, especially so soon after the fanfare release. PR will not help much. Fast solutions are needed. Marketing is closely tied to PR and remember , as someone recently said," PR means never having to say you are wrong" I will report on my new Leica when I have had a good play with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 11, 2006 Share #8 Posted November 11, 2006 Marc, I appreciate your directness. There is no point pussy-footing around this issue. The camera does not perform as expected and the problem must be corrected at Leica's expense and inconvenience, not mine. I don't want to return it. I've spent $20k on lenses in anticipation of it. Filters are, at best, a short term workaround and it's up to each user whether they invest in filters to get started with serious use of the camera ahead of a properly engineered fix. Leica have some of the most experienced optical engineers in the world, are world experts at coating and have access to all kinds of exotic materials working with companies like Schott. They must focus on developing a sensor cover glass with the required IR filtration and optical characteristics and then supply it to Kodak to put on a new Leica version of the sensor. Finally, users must be given a re-work slot to return their cameras by (say) DHL with a 2 week turn around time. Leica are indeed fortunate that we're not just returning our cameras "en-masse" for a refund immediately. Loyalty to and enthusiasm for the marque are making us hang in there but the more marketing spin we get which smacks of political and financial expediency, the less forebearance we'll show. Back of the envelope told me yesterday showed this could cost $5m. A lot of money, but Leica are really playing in the Last Chance Saloon right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 11, 2006 Share #9 Posted November 11, 2006 The fact that they are still selling them is a telling sign, non? I would like to see much more openness and much, much more communication from Leica. Yet, even in this forum the consesus seems to be: how dare you, for pete's sake don't bother them, let them work, don-t ask too much in detail. In other words keep the faith, trust in the Church of Leica. The first statement we got after the 'tuxedo crisis' broke out was, frankly, insulting. The second/current one is only partially right (if it included the word RECALL it would be 100% right). Yet as soon as it came posters started bending over backwards to say thank-you thank-you how wonderful you are. I posted a comment that said: ok, you finally said what you should have....it was taken out. Trust in the Church. Wait. Then wait some more. Then get ready to open the wallet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 11, 2006 Share #10 Posted November 11, 2006 Alex, I have to say I had expected that production would be put on hold as of yesterday - no point making cameras which are going to have to be re-worked. I also expected to hear of cameras being pulled back from the distribution chain. Arguably, they should stop selling a camera they know to be faulty both for reasons of mis-representation to the customer and the more there are out there, the bigger the re-work headache. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 11, 2006 Share #11 Posted November 11, 2006 Mark, you logic is flawless. Looking at your 1000+ post experience, should i deduce that you might know more than the rest of us, and therefore what you "think" is what is actually happening? It would be very nice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 11, 2006 Share #12 Posted November 11, 2006 I understand that everyone should be treated equally. I only suggested a priority slant because some people who make their living with cameras actually made a pretty heavy commitment to this camera in good faith. I've been through enough with technology so as to never make that kind of commitment no matter who made the gear. Even though I make money with my cameras, I don't need this one to do so. I kept my M7 and MP3, and will continue to shoot film at weddings ... which I was going to do anyway ... a commitment that includes a scanner that costs 3X what this M8 costs. It is amazing the forbearance most are exhibiting. When I discovered a flaw in a Canon 1DMKII selection wheel, not only did I return it that same day. I never bought it's replacement. I didn't trust it. There is the key word surrounding all this technical banter: TRUST. My clients trust that I will deliver what they see in my samples. To do that I absolutlely need to TRUST my gear ... it can fail me only once and that'll be the end of it. It's not logical, it's emotional. TRUST is an emotion. If I don't trust that something will do what it is supposed to do, I will have no confidence in it. I have full confidence in my Leica M film cameras. For now, I have little, to none in this M8. I think Sean is brave for taking this camera to shoot a wedding today ... but he has two so that mitigates it a bit. Bet the M8s aren't the only cameras he has with him. If not then he is really brave ... or crazy :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 11, 2006 Share #13 Posted November 11, 2006 Alex, I know no more than anyone here, sadly, just telling it the way I see it. Marc, I believe he's taking a 5D as backup! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 11, 2006 Share #14 Posted November 11, 2006 Sorry, I disagree completely. This is making Leica's problem my problem. Fix the camera. Post an open letter of intent to do so at their expense. Inform the dealers of their actions and fax them their path to fixing the cameras as soon as a real solution is engineered. Leica needs to shift into "crisis mode", and even set up a hot swap crisis line of action ... giving professional photographers (like Guy and Sean for example) a priority status like Canon and major MF back makers do. For example, compared to this, I recently had an relatively small issue with a digital back. I had a "hot swap" new one the next day. Sorry for being so direct. I completely agree when they get that fix they did to just exchange bodies with me and than take my body and refurbish it and resell it as refurbished with the new solution. Marc is right this is NOT my problem at all. I paid my money and should have a perfect body, Okay i need serious working out for that ( joke) but I should not be made to suffer or any other customer. Replace the 2000 that went out with new ones and than take the affected ones and refurbish them and sell them for 3795 dollars. Now should they get the Pro's back in business fast, absolutely . pro's using leica gear and having there images around the world is not only a major marketing plug for leica but is also the proper thing to do because this is our income. Let's face it how many people bought the DMR because of Seans reviews , Marcs images and my DMR thread and images posted to it. Not trying to brag at all but that is reality , people want to use what the Pro's do just like many other things . Snow ski's, Sneakers,Cars etc etc etc . The need to take care of us and also there customers. Canon and Nikon do this all the time. Now i do get professional service from the repair shops from Leica and they have been stellar in getting me my gear back ASAP and working again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted November 11, 2006 Share #15 Posted November 11, 2006 Some of these suggested solutions might be a bit premature -- we don't know yet about possible firmware/software fixes. I personally would love the filter fix, if we could get them at cost, because I'm a filter user anyway -- but Guy's experiments in the last couple of days have suggested that there might be some adjustments that have to be made even with filters. It's apparent to me that Leica knew about these issues -- witness Michael Reichmann's comments about his tests, and the fact that the guy who took the first known commercial delivery discovered the banding problem. If he'd been the 25th or the 100th or 1000th, maybe I wouldn't be so sure that the problem was known. But he was the first guy -- shooting the first night. Rescheduling a major product launch is enormously expensive, especially for a company in Leica's delicate financial state. Should they have rescheduled? Who knows? I don't know enough about Leica. But I think an immediate fix, or even an immediate decision about what to do, is unlikely; there are just too many business and legal complications across too many countries with too many consequences. It'll take a while to work out. I'd be happy to give them two weeks, or even a month, to come up with something. As for the guy who thinks there ought to be a price break on the camera itself, or that the price will sharply decline...I wouldn't hold my breath until it happens. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted November 11, 2006 Share #16 Posted November 11, 2006 seems to me its entirely possible to retro fit a fix there are other cameras that have in built IR filters this would be little different to a filter draw on a mirror lens excepting that removal would be more difficult Riley Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted November 11, 2006 Share #17 Posted November 11, 2006 {snipped} Now i do get professional service from the repair shops from Leica and they have been stellar in getting me my gear back ASAP and working again. Agree with Marc and Guy. One of the reasons I got my M8--and it's not going back in the box--is the stellar Leica service on my inadvertently dropped (and not by me!) DMR / R9. Lens fixed; body fixed, all under Passport; pro turnaround of 1 week (over the border) to Leica NJ from Toronto. That's about the same as I get from CPS (Canon Pro Service) here in Toronto. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 11, 2006 Share #18 Posted November 11, 2006 hmm, said no soap box.. ok how about this. when Mercedes had an engine mount problem (vibration at high speed, not normally seen, actually at the time only at speeds greater than the legal limit !) the made new mounts, offered to pick up the rental for the day it toook, and fixed it. Trashing or refurbing 2000 cameras? Is that reasonable? If the fix is to replace the IR cover, I would see no problem even re using the sensor. (Maybe Lerica could say "Made with recycled material" and get some GREENS positive press!) If just the clover is changes, seems no different than the mercedes case. If a re manufactured sensor were used in a new camera, would likely need to be disclosed and maybe knock a few humdred dollars off. I think Jamie has it right, But asking a company to trash millions of dollars worth a equipment I just don't see it and am certainly not expecting it. A simple fix, like the rotating wheel on the DMR sounds a lot more resonable. For PROs I think they might do an early exchange and maybe recycle, but even that seems a stretch. Let's have a poll (I will not set up for self defense reasons. :-) Who wants to see Leica succeed and continue as a top end Photo equipment provider? hmmm? Victor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetccox Posted November 11, 2006 Share #19 Posted November 11, 2006 Well, first they need to get on top again. If they do not, they should not succeed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 11, 2006 Share #20 Posted November 11, 2006 Victor, truth is we do not know the extent of any hardware changes. There's no way they could re-use the sensor by replacing the cover glass. This is not like replacing the windshield on a Hummer. If they have to replace the sensor, they have to go through the clean room alignment and sensor calibration process and, depending on what else they have found, they may have to replace some more of the electronics as well. All depends on what is causing the green blobs and banding. They also need to critically evaluate whether AWB can ever work without an ambient light sensor. If an updated sensor can be adjusted within the current body, they do not need to trash the camera, it's just like a major failure replacement. Still expensive and time consuming and uses resources (people) who would otherwise be making new cameras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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