Which film rangefinder?

[swifty]

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Hi everyone,

I'm sorry but this is yet another newbie question and I kinda feel silly asking this in a Leica forum but here it goes. I mainly need guidance on purchasing a film rangefinder and as much I'd like to buy a Leica, they are generally out of my budget. But I have decided on the M-system so I was wondering what are other good models to consider. So far I have read some reviews on Zeiss Ikon ZI (still expensive) and Voigtlander Bessa R4A (within budget) but I know I'm only scraping the tip of the iceberg here. I'm more than happy to purchase second hand.

I should also explain that I'm quite experienced as a digital photographer but have never really shot film and have had an awakening lately after some guidance in a course I'm taking as well as seeing more and more printed work as oppose to just web published stuff. So I'm not a complete newbie to photography, but just to film. I'm also going to be undertaking a film processing course next semester so I will be processing my own work and in need of a film camera before mid-July ish.

And I've always wanted the rangefinder shooting experience and as much as I'd like to buy a M7, I'd prefer a cheap-ish good, maybe used body and buy a Leica lens or two. Maybe a 50mm and 21mm. I'm also very interested in the new Voigtlander 50mm 1.1 so that might be my 50mm but am still researching the wider lens.

Best Regards

David

[jpattison]

There are plenty of good condition, used, Leica M models on the market (eBay!) all the time.

Most would benefit from being CLA'd by a technician. (CLA = cleaned, lubed and adjusted)

An M2 would be the cheapest M film camera, use with an external meter.

 

If you don't get on wirth it, sell it on and try something else, but when you have it in your hands, the build quality will persuade you!!

 

Enjoy

John

[abrewer]

Pick up an M6TTL used (~$1200) and a 35 'Cron (~$800-1000) not necessarily current model

 

Just be sure the strap lugs are tight (no light leaks through them) on the body and the lens is in good shape

 

Leica stuff is practically bullet-proof and most people take good care, but you still have to look

 

Borrow the $2K if you have to

 

You'll get it all back when you resell (if you ever do)

[rob_x2004]

What Allan said. But I would be a M6 non TTL. One lens till you know the system inside out, the 35 will cover all even if it isnt a favourite focal length. You will learn enough to know the answers to the questions you subsequently ask and be able to assess the validity of the advice you get when expanding the system to tailor to your needs. It will be the most fun you had photographically .... and you will likely always be able to flog it ... so ....

[abrewer]

I suggest the TTL because it is a little more current than the original M6 and probably less expensive b/c it's a teeny bit bigger

 

But certainly a good M6 is a wonderful camera and handles almost identically to my MP

[rob_x2004]

Yea, the only reason I have the 6 Classic at the top is because the shutter dial is smaller and set back so you can chimp away on it while using your first finger joint on the shutter release. It all works. I reckon the discussion on shutter speed dial direction is a furfie, Im quite happy to chase the arrow with shutter speed and follow the arrow with aperture. There are harder things in life to learn, like making a cuppa or scones or tying shoelaces. Six of one.

[peter_n]

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David, the Voigtlander R4A or R4M are excellent cameras, I sold mine and I regret it very much. Their major advantage is that they will correct for parallax on super-wides in the viewfinder, the only rangefinder camera on the market that will do this. They have the following framelines: 21/25, 28, 35/50. You would be able to mount a 21mm lens on the camera and see outside of the framelines, a major compositional advantage of rangefinder photography and unique to this camera body.

 

I would pick up a Voigtlander 21mm and any 50mm lens of your choice. Buy used, and that includes the camera body. As pointed out above, Leica kit is expensive but it generally holds or increases its value so the cost of ownership is generally zero but that isn't true of other brands. If you're really interested in an R4 try one with a 50mm lens and see if you can focus it comfortably. The camera is really a wide-angle specialty body and has a magnification of only 0.52x and some people have difficulty focusing a 50mm lens on it.

 

Good luck with your adventure and welcome to the forum!

 

 

[enboe]

There are several tiers to trying out the rangefinder experience:

 

Tier 1): Try a rental or borrow a camera from a friend. See how you do for a weekend. Alternately, buy a Canonet G-3 for under $100. You'll get most of your money back if you don't like it.

 

Tier 2): Pick up a new or clean used Cosina Voigtlander body and CV lens in the 35mm range. You'll spend a few hundred this route, and probably will take a 50% hit on reselling, but it will be newer and have more modern conveniences. A similar budget will buy an old Leica iiia or iiif, but that's a different experience.

 

Tier 3): Go Retro-Leica. I picked up a new in box CL, 40mm, and 90mm two weeks ago for $1K. You can find a worn but usable M2, M3, or M4-2 for $700ish. Be sure to buy from a reputable dealer, have receipt evidence of recent clean/lube/adjustment, or inspect thoroughly before buying. Tag on $300 for a clean Elmar or new CV glass and you're in business with an outfit that will bring 65% of your investment back if you decide to re-sell.

 

Tier 4): Modern, but not new, Leica. This is the domain of the M6 and occasional M6TTL. You'll spend $1000-1200 for a good condition, well sorted out body, but could find yourself never needing to buy anything more in the future. Another $600 for a Leica 50 or $900 for a Leica 35 and your set.

 

Tier 4a): Zeiss Ikon, Konica Hexar RF, Rollei 35 RF, etc., these are all decent variants on the Cosina Voigtlander theme. The Zeiss does have a beautiful finder, and I will probably cave in and own one someday. You won't save much over Tier 4), but may find you like the feel or other conveniences.

 

Tier 5): Epson RD-1, RD-1s and Leica M8, used or certified, pre-owned. The $2-3K domain buys you entry into a digital M experience. The Epson bodies are very good - just check the rangefinder patch alignment or pay someone $100 to realign it. You also can look for a clean M7 or MP in this price range.

 

Tier 6): New M7, MP, M8, M8.2. O.K. lots of money, but as I tell myself, still cheaper than a boat. A big, once in a lifetime investment, with 35-50% (more for digital) depreciation risk in the short term. Solms will thank you for helping keep the company rolling along.

 

So, you can scratch your itch for anywhere from about $100 up to $10,000. Most importantly, enjoy the hobby.

 

Eric

[martha]

And, David, when choosing your lens focal length, remember that a film Leica is not like a digital camera in that you get that actual focal length, not a multiple. If you are used to, say, a Canon 30D, your 50mm on that digital camera becomes an actual 75mm; on a Leica film camera a 50mm is a 50mm and so forth. Good luck, have fun and show us some images.-martha

[drachenfels]

Hi Dave.

I started myself 15 years ago with an M4-P and a 35mm f/1.4, all second-hand. But I got tired of using an external meter. I then bought an M7 which is the camera I use most, and later an M6 non TTL, for color.

 

In your case I would suggest an M6 because of the meter inside which you have not on earlier models (M3, M4) and a 50mm f/2 or a 35mm f/2. The f/2 lenses are usually better than the f/1.4, in my opinion at least, and cheaper. All this can be bought second hand.

 

For the 21mm, you will need and external viewfinder. It's not very easy to use. I have a Zeiss 25mm and it's not always easy to use one viewfinder for metering and focusing and then the other one to compose the image. But it works. You only have to get used to it. And Jean-Loup Sieff for example made wonderful photographs with a 21mm.

 

Well, I hope this helps you.

 

Patrick

[NZDavid]

I absolutely agree with the others: go for an M6, or hunt for a good quality used M2 or M3 or M4, M4-2 or M4-P. I would get it from a dealer as you then have some comeback should something go wrong. I'd add a 50mm Summicron. You would also need a handheld meter for models prior to the M6. I recommend the Sekonic 308.

[dpattinson]

I'd recommend trying a few out, if you can locate a second hand shop in Sydney that have a variety of RF cameras in stock.

 

Certainly if you are in Melbourne you can visit the Camera Exchange in Lonsdale St and you should be able to play with Voightlander and Leica bodies. Quite possibly they will have a Zeiss and they often have the Konica RF in stock as well.

 

Definitely try out a Konica Hexar RF if you can. You get essentially the features of a M7 plus automatic film advance and a 2 stops better shutter (1/4000). Typically the Hexar RF with a 50 f2 Hexanon lens costs less than a vanilla M6 second hand, so it is remarkable value for money.

[thomasw_]

This is simple.

 

1. Get a hand held meter, e.g., a digisix by gossen or something like it.

 

2. Pick a lens. Choose a 35 or 50 to start. Buy it used. I recommend an older summicron dr 50/2 or a v3 summicron 35/2. You can get either for under 900. Both are great lenses; so just choose the focal length.

 

3. If you choose a 35, then buy a user M2; buy a user M3 if you went with the 50. You'll pay between 500-700 bucks depending on condition.

 

You'll have an outstanding kit either way.

[roguewave]

Start with the LEGEND, a M3. It is a camera you will never stop using & always cherish. The 50 summilux or summicron would be best, even the much cheaper collapsible 50 cron ($125-150) is fine. The huge, bright viewfinder makes it the best starter. The M2 is the next step. Buy the small Gossen Digisix light meter & keep it in your pocket for the six months until you can read the light almost as well as the meter. Then you will be able to just take the pictures & not fret about all the details. I promise you will never want to give up that M3.

[kenneth]

I am biased but an M6 Classic 0.72 if you like taking pictures with wide angle to short tele lenses or a .85 if your preferences is standard to tele lenses

[swifty]

Thanks everyone for your generous and concise response. Sounds like the consensus is to save for a leica, even much older generation ones. I will have to research more on the m-models since there appears to be a million iterations. Also subject to what I can find in Sydney of course. As a first rf, I prefer to have someone experienced walk me through the shooting/ film loading process which I've read canbe a chore. I'm still considering a very cheap rf alternative though or if I'm out of time, I may get a used nikon f4 or fm2n or something for the time being since I already have nikkor lens.

I've some specific questions from some of ur responses and I will try to address them individually.

[swifty]

Yea, the only reason I have the 6 Classic at the top is because the shutter dial is smaller and set back so you can chimp away on it while using your first finger joint on the shutter release. It all works. I reckon the discussion on shutter speed dial direction is a furfie, Im quite happy to chase the arrow with shutter speed and follow the arrow with aperture. There are harder things in life to learn, like making a cuppa or scones or tying shoelaces. Six of one.

 

So other than the small nuances in ergonomics, the m6 classic and ttl are essentially identical? So if that is the case, wouldn't the ttl version provide slightly more accurate metering?

As a digital photographer I'm more careless with my exposures since u can chimp and delete as u wish. This is something I hope to address using film but i'd be all for better metering if that is the case. I'm not quite sold on the idea of an external meter. Was hoping the less I have to carry, the better but I guess an incident meter (hand held) should yield better results than a reflective one which I assume the m6 has.

[swifty]

And, David, when choosing your lens focal length, remember that a film Leica is not like a digital camera in that you get that actual focal length, not a multiple. If you are used to, say, a Canon 30D, your 50mm on that digital camera becomes an actual 75mm; on a Leica film camera a 50mm is a 50mm and so forth. Good luck, have fun and show us some images.-martha

 

Hi martha, I have a small 35 f1.8 on my Fuji s5 which has the fov equivalant to about 52mm and I quite like that fl so that's why I thought I'd start with a 50 on the rf. But many are suggesting the 35 summicron. I assume this would be because its easier to use initially when learning to use rf's. I personally prefer wider but didn't realize u need an external finder unless I went with the Bessa r4. But then the 50 might be trickier to mf due to the smaller magnification of the finder??

[JBA]

David,

 

The TTL of M6 TTL refers to the fact that it is capable of TTL flash. Actually, the first M camera to have through-the-lens metering was the M5. Any M6 will meter through the lens. The M6 meter is very accurate and intuitive.

 

Almost 2 years ago now, I asked a very similar question here on the forum and was steered toward the M6. I got a 35 Summicron for it and used that combination for about 6 months before getting another lens. Speaking from experience, I can highly recommend going this route.

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[peter_n]

I have a small 35 f1.8 on my Fuji s5 which has the fov equivalant to about 52mm and I quite like that fl so that's why I thought I'd start with a 50 on the rf.

I have the same lens on my S5 and I started my RF journey with a 50 six years ago. Lens preference is a personal thing and if you like the 50mm FL get a 50mm lens.