rick_dykstra Posted July 15, 2009 Share #141 Posted July 15, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) In my humble opinion the only way a company like Leica can survive these days is by making niche products with high quality, high perceived value AND high margins, the M8 and S2 both fulful these criteria, an R10 was never going to. I think an R10 would have been seen as a niche product just as the M and S2 are/will be. It would not have been serious competition for Canon and Nikon but it would have attracted a few curious pros and afficionados into the camp. Price alone would keep it in the niche category. Did you witness the DMR thread on the Fred Miranda site a couple of years ago? A number of Canon users who were curious about Leica lenses went out and bought them and DMRs to go with them. If you build it, they will come. If you want an R10, get over to this thread and register your vote! http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/91736-poll-would-you-have-bought-r10-3.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 15, 2009 Posted July 15, 2009 Hi rick_dykstra, Take a look here R10 RIP, but.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jlancasterd Posted July 18, 2009 Share #142 Posted July 18, 2009 I bought my 'R10' earlier today - a Nikon D700 with 24-70 f2.8 zoom, 105 f2.8 macro and SB-900 Speedlight. My DMR and the R-gear I'd been saving to use with the cancelled Leica DSLR went in part-exchange... I've already got a Voigtlander 20mm f3.5 with an AIS mount, so my wide angle work is now well covered. I won't be buying any more Leica gear in a hurry as I've already got what I need for my M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 18, 2009 Share #143 Posted July 18, 2009 Oh, John. You didn't need to forego your glass. Your D700 works beautifully with R lenses, with a little help Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlancasterd Posted July 19, 2009 Share #144 Posted July 19, 2009 Oh, John. You didn't need to forego your glass. Your D700 works beautifully with R lenses, with a little help Not the zooms (21-35 and 28-90) unfortunately, which was what I wanted. And I can always get a Zeiss 35mm, 50mm or 85mm lens with the Nikon mount if I ever feel the need for a top quality prime... One benefit I've noticed already with the D700 compared with the R8 is the provision of a digital rangefinder in the former - I'm now 68 and was beginning to find critical focussing with wide angle lenses on the R8 difficult, even with the microprism screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bono0272 Posted July 19, 2009 Share #145 Posted July 19, 2009 All I want to say about no R10 is: I am so glad that I am still keeping my DMR, and it produces excellent photos for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Mitchum Posted July 20, 2009 Share #146 Posted July 20, 2009 I don't understand how they think they can sell 10,000 S2s at $15,000 USD (or more) yet not do the same or better with an R10 at half that price (their estimate) especially when much of the R&D from the S2 was supposed to have trickled down to the R10. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything the R10 would be a much better seller based on price and being able to use existing R lenses. The "can't compete with Canon, Nikon, etc." excuse is flawed. They will never compete with them. They will always be a niche market. The price alone guarantees that. This is nothing new. I think most understand and accept this. It may even be part of the allure. Honestly I think dropping the R10 is a major blunder that may do them serious harm, perhaps enough that they will not be able to recover from it. Yes, they have been around for a long time but that was in the film era. The digital era is a whole different beast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 20, 2009 Share #147 Posted July 20, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think that there has been some confusion about the market size for the S2. From memory, Stefan Daniel said that Leica estimated the total world market for (all brands of) medium format cameras was 10,000 units per year and Leica hoped to secure a two digit percentage of that. The summary translation from Andreas has the clearest information. I think that the technology pioneered in the coming S2 system is meant to trickle down to new products as you say. Sadly for the R enthusiasts that won't be in the form of an R10 and new AF R lenses as we now know. Leica articles in LFI this year have placed emphasis on the importance of Leica having all of that technology in house now. As early as the start of this year, Dr Kaufmann was speculating aloud on a possible new M camera with different viewfinder arrangements that could possibly accept zoom lenses, M lenses and R lenses. I don't think that we have heard the last of that particular concept. I don't understand how they think they can sell 10,000 S2s at $15,000 USD (or more) yet not do the same or better with an R10 at half that price (their estimate) especially when much of the R&D from the S2 was supposed to have trickled down to the R10. It just doesn't make any sense to me. If anything the R10 would be a much better seller based on price and being able to use existing R lenses. The "can't compete with Canon, Nikon, etc." excuse is flawed. They will never compete with them. They will always be a niche market. The price alone guarantees that. This is nothing new. I think most understand and accept this. It may even be part of the allure. Honestly I think dropping the R10 is a major blunder that may do them serious harm, perhaps enough that they will not be able to recover from it. Yes, they have been around for a long time but that was in the film era. The digital era is a whole different beast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted July 20, 2009 Share #148 Posted July 20, 2009 yes it seems such a lost opportunity. Given a collision of thoughts FF prototype M9's are certain to exist as development tools, you can take from that and add the developed electronics suite for the M8 and its DNG engine. Locate an R9 mirrorbox and OVF to the shutter and sensor and you have the basis of the R10 right there. Leaving two big issues to conquer, the sensor IR-Cutoff filter isnt a big problem as we are not talking M lenses and the difficulties with short registers, leaving just some form of focus confirmation, for which the answers really are out there to lose stop down metering and have both aperture and speed priority shooting. quite puzzling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
krabat Posted July 20, 2009 Share #149 Posted July 20, 2009 I completely do not understand the decision to abandon the R10. In my personal opinion, most of the owners of R lenses would be happy just to have a dSLR specially designed for their lenses, without particular emphasis on myriads of megapixels, incredible high ISO values and dozens of silly super-duper digital options to play with. Just a dSLR to which the R lenses can be put on without adapters and/or the need of fiddling and filing. Last year, when we (members of the Leica User Forum) had the get-together with Dr. Kaufmann, everybody was talking about the R10. I talked personally to Mrs. Harberts, who told me that she was already working hard for the development of the R10. A sad story that Leica now says an R10 will not happen. The argument I have heard that an R10 would not attract new customers is rather a weak one - I am sure there WOULD be people stepping into the "R world" after the launch of the R10, a digital Leica SLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted July 21, 2009 Share #150 Posted July 21, 2009 Hallo Krabat. Stefan Daniel did say that owners of R lenses would be possible customers for an R10 but that is not enough customers. Since Leica no longer makes any R lenses they can't very well attract new customers to a camera that they (and every other lens manufacturer) make no lenses for. I would think that very few, if any R lenses had been produced for some time before the line was officially discontinued. It seems pretty clear that they made no money and probably a large loss, on selling off the remaining stock very cheaply. Of course, if a new range of Auto Focus R lenses was designed and made then some new customers might be attracted to a niche product. We all thought that this was the plan but the global financial crisis arrived. Leica's position is that they just would not be competitive in the general dSLR market and as importantly they clearly cannot afford the investment for what they assess as unlikely to be profitable. I completely do not understand the decision to abandon the R10. In my personal opinion, most of the owners of R lenses would be happy just to have a dSLR specially designed for their lenses, without particular emphasis on myriads of megapixels, incredible high ISO values and dozens of silly super-duper digital options to play with. Just a dSLR to which the R lenses can be put on without adapters and/or the need of fiddling and filing. Last year, when we (members of the Leica User Forum) had the get-together with Dr. Kaufmann, everybody was talking about the R10. I talked personally to Mrs. Harberts, who told me that she was already working hard for the development of the R10. A sad story that Leica now says an R10 will not happen. The argument I have heard that an R10 would not attract new customers is rather a weak one - I am sure there WOULD be people stepping into the "R world" after the launch of the R10, a digital Leica SLR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angora Posted July 21, 2009 Share #151 Posted July 21, 2009 I don't understand, or I'm being too candid. Leica said it would stop the R line, yet offer a digital solution for existing R lenses. And that it would pass on S2 technology to a digital camera of the size of the R7. And everybody suspected (very sadly, for my part) that Leica would produce autofocus lenses anyways. So what? "R" implies manual focus lenses and digital back. But that's not where Leica is willing to go ahead. The company wants autofocus and fully integrated digital sensor. Which leads them to "S". The R10 is dead; the S10 is in gestation. Or so should it be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 21, 2009 Share #152 Posted July 21, 2009 No S10 or other FF DSLR at the horizon so far. Only the M9 and the S2 which would be a $15-20K medium format camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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