Guest Bernd Banken Posted July 7, 2009 Share #121 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Looking from a farer distance to the subject I would see the reason in stopping the development of a new R is Panasonic. In their roadmap to become a serious competitor to the three market dominators, a FF camera is a top goal. BUT for them it makes no sense to have a nearly in-house competitor as Leica would be with a different DSLR. PLUS the different lens lineup for both cameras= Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Hi Guest Bernd Banken, Take a look here R10 RIP, but.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted July 7, 2009 Share #122 Posted July 7, 2009 ...what's the point of a $900 Panasonic that takes R glass? Why wouldn't I just buy a Digital Rebel and be done with it?... Because stop down metering with the Rebel instead of full aperture metering or, more probably, EVF with the Panny's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted July 7, 2009 Share #123 Posted July 7, 2009 Actually, I understand Leica investing in a "flagship camera", even if it doesn't make them much money! But then the smart thing to do would be to makes tons of money on an "R10" / S?? priced affordably and on whatever the image processing and sensor work brings to a new M9. The S2 alone, unless it's priced to compete with Nikon, not Hassy, will not bring Leica's fortunes back. Couldn't agree more - and this is exactly what Leica told us last fall they were having in mind. And your last sentence is exactly my own worry, too. And if Leica bites the dust with the S2 alone - what will become of us loyal Leica users with all our M and R equipment which is such fun to use? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #124 Posted July 7, 2009 Why wouldn't I just buy a Digital Rebel and be done with it? Stop-down metering, metering that varies with aperture, stop-down focussing, mirror box calibration, viewfinder quality... shall I go on? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 7, 2009 Share #125 Posted July 7, 2009 Actually, I understand Leica investing in a "flagship camera", even if it doesn't make them much money! But then the smart thing to do would be to makes tons of money on an "R10" / S?? priced affordably and on whatever the image processing and sensor work brings to a new M9. The S2 alone, unless it's priced to compete with Nikon, not Hassy, will not bring Leica's fortunes back. HI Jamie I hope you're well. I just don't believe it would be possible for a small European company to make an affordably priced dSLR which was up to Leica standards - If it were going to have Leica quality glass, then that, at least, would have to be expensive, thus ensuring small volume sales . . . which means expensive to make, which translates either to no profit or high cost. As for lack of trust . . . if it wasn't for the economic downturn, I'd guess the R-10 would still be on it's way to us, but I really doubt it would have been at a price that would have converted many from their Canikon big guns - and if they really wanted to use R-glass, they would carry on sticking it on the Canon. I think it's pretty unfair to blame a company on a trust basis in the face of the biggest economic downturn since . . . whenever. In my humble opinion the only way a company like Leica can survive these days is by making niche products with high quality, high perceived value AND high margins, the M8 and S2 both fulful these criteria, an R10 was never going to. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted July 7, 2009 Share #126 Posted July 7, 2009 makes you think though a FF SLR generated from the R design with a decent frame rate for R lenses with no AF, just a simple focus confirm system. This would require that the body have at least a single point AF system inserted into the R chassis. Focus confirm itself isnt an issue, hell if some small operator in HK can make adapters for EOS with focus confirm and focus trimmers, its hard to see why Leica itself could not acquire these skills. Perhaps its even possible to supplant a CDAF system off the sensor which would allow AF point selection from a touch screen LCD on the camera back. Hello Panasonic.. * the sensor is an import, not something Leica have to make * the electronics once designed are cheap to outsource and procure * the firmware requires good ongoing support for the life of the system, (this is the real competence issue as I see it, and requires a permanent solution.) Unless a viable FFM9 chassis exists, it would be a simpler concept to accept the M8 electronics and accept the crop sensor with a revised IRcutoff filter, this wouldn't be an issue due to the longer register of the R system (and that probably denotes the 'real problem' with FFM9 anyway). Provide a decent buffer for higher frame rate and the complete camera comes together rather quickly. The job at Solms then is as an assembly plant once design is complete and the modules outsourced for acquisition. I guess there is a question in that would a basically non AF dSLR be competitive against formidable FF opposition Money aside, I cant see why this isnt a possibility, am I missing something ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #127 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Money aside, I cant see why this isnt a possibility, am I missing something ? You're not missing something, you understand why it's not a possibility at the present time. It's money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsolomon Posted July 7, 2009 Share #128 Posted July 7, 2009 I mean, what's the point of a $900 Panasonic that takes R glass? I wonder what can be produced these days as a 2-3 year throw away camera body that uses high quaility lenses to produce high quality images......lets face it, a camera body is no more then a computer, when I throw my computer away every 2-3 years and buy a new one - I pay less and get more.... Do I really need traditional R camera body robutness anymore Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #129 Posted July 7, 2009 I wonder what can be produced these days as a 2-3 year throw away camera body that uses high quaility lenses to produce high quality images......lets face it, a camera body is no more then a computer, when I throw my computer away every 2-3 years and buy a new one - I pay less and get more.... Do I really need traditional R camera body robustness anymore As long it allows me to see and frame my subject, compose and focus my photos, uses R lenses, produces images at least as gorgeous as the DMR does, and can handle arctic, tropic and desert conditions as well as a studio, I only care that it lasts long enough that I can afford its replacement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bephoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #130 Posted July 7, 2009 I dont care about buying affordable DSLR, professional tools are expensive BUT leica is making distrust. After selling the last bits of R from Solms stock they announced R is discontinued and i still remember in photokina the R7 in glass box written above the box: R7, R10 (coming soon...) what this means??? selling last bits of R to those who thought R10 is coming and then BYE BYE! NO R10! i never used R but i know friends who put their trust on that system. I think S2 is another failure. I would never exchange Hasselblad Zeiss lenses and HC af with S2 system, a professional system must be flexible and Modular. €15K body with no future, non-expandable, not felxible (a digital back can be hooked to any body), lack of movements (a studio cant live with one TS lens) and made by a company which its stocks are falling day by day and loosing collaboration with phaseone and discontinuing RENOWNED R SYSTEM its not what i would recommend my students and friends. M9 / R10 is the only way for leica cuz its simple, millions of lenses from these two systems are owned by top photographers who are ready to pay cash for a FF solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted July 7, 2009 Share #131 Posted July 7, 2009 I dont care about buying affordable DSLR, professional tools are expensive BUT leica is making distrust. After selling the last bits of R from Solms stock they announced R is discontinued and i still remember in photokina the R7 in glass box written above the box: R7, R10 (coming soon...) what this means??? selling last bits of R to those who thought R10 is coming and then BYE BYE! NO R10! i never used R but i know friends who put their trust on that system. I think S2 is another failure. I would never exchange Hasselblad Zeiss lenses and HC af with S2 system, a professional system must be flexible and Modular. €15K body with no future, non-expandable, not felxible (a digital back can be hooked to any body), lack of movements (a studio cant live with one TS lens) and made by a company which its stocks are falling day by day and loosing collaboration with phaseone and discontinuing RENOWNED R SYSTEM its not what i would recommend my students and friends. M9 / R10 is the only way for leica cuz its simple, millions of lenses from these two systems are owned by top photographers who are ready to pay cash for a FF solution. That sums it up nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 7, 2009 Share #132 Posted July 7, 2009 Stop-down metering, metering that varies with aperture, stop-down focussing, mirror box calibration, viewfinder quality... shall I go on? Yeah, I do understand the "benefits" Doug--but honestly the EVF in the latest Panny is no better than the crappy VF in a Rebel to my eyes. I don't care much about stop-down metering; I did that on the 5d and 1ds2 already and it was fine in practice. Mirror box issues, yeah, yeah. But we'll see if Panasonic can make something I really want to use... I doubt it, personally, but as always, I'm happy to be wrong, I guess. Oh--and the Digital Rebel is available now; not three years from now. I'm getting older Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 7, 2009 Share #133 Posted July 7, 2009 {snipped} In my humble opinion the only way a company like Leica can survive these days is by making niche products with high quality, high perceived value AND high margins, the M8 and S2 both fulful these criteria, an R10 was never going to. Hi Jono-- We agree to disagree. I'd take your first sentence and apply it to the S2. And the top-end of the dSLR market is hardly a commodity; $15-$20K with glass is what my friends with D3xs and 1ds3s spend. Heck--that's what we spend on the M8 if you count it all up But they're not--and I'm not--going to spend $30K on a body by itself. So this is a risky up-market move. But once they've done the R&D, it just makes sense to use that work for a series of products in both markets; high end dSLR and low-end MF. I just don't believe Panasonic is ever going to give us the kind of colour or image quality in any reasonably short future time-frame that the DMR did--and that's sad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 7, 2009 Share #134 Posted July 7, 2009 Hi Jono-- We agree to disagree. I'd take your first sentence and apply it to the S2. And the top-end of the dSLR market is hardly a commodity; $15-$20K with glass is what my friends with D3xs and 1ds3s spend. Heck--that's what we spend on the M8 if you count it all up But they're not--and I'm not--going to spend $30K on a body by itself. So this is a risky up-market move. Well, of course, the final solution is in how good the S2 is . .. if it's a little better than a D3x / 1DsmkII, then I agree - dead in the water . . if it's as good as the better MF backs, then the coherence of the system and the results . . well, I think it'll work, even if it is expensive. But once they've done the R&D, it just makes sense to use that work for a series of products in both markets; high end dSLR and low-end MF. But the manufacturing costs have to be cheap too . . . and they simply aren't going to be for the size of any production run that Leica is going to manage. I go back to my point - I'm sure that Leica has a great future, but not in competing with Japanese camera companies who make their products in China. When people talk of a body price for an S2 in competition with a D3x . . it's laughable, it really is. . . . I just don't believe Panasonic is ever going to give us the kind of colour or image quality in any reasonably short future time-frame that the DMR did--and that's sad. No - I agree . . . or do I! I've been fiddling with a baby Olympus recently (EP-1), and the colour and image quality is really very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #135 Posted July 7, 2009 ... the EVF in the latest Panny is no better than the crappy VF in a Rebel to my eyes. ... and the Digital Rebel is available now; not three years from now. I'm getting older Neither the digital Rebel nor the latest EVF Panasonic camera is a suitable replacement for the R8/DMR so I've purchased a second DMR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bephoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #136 Posted July 7, 2009 Hi Jono-- We agree to disagree. I'd take your first sentence and apply it to the S2. And the top-end of the dSLR market is hardly a commodity; $15-$20K with glass is what my friends with D3xs and 1ds3s spend. Heck--that's what we spend on the M8 if you count it all up But they're not--and I'm not--going to spend $30K on a body by itself. So this is a risky up-market move. But once they've done the R&D, it just makes sense to use that work for a series of products in both markets; high end dSLR and low-end MF. I just don't believe Panasonic is ever going to give us the kind of colour or image quality in any reasonably short future time-frame that the DMR did--and that's sad. True but €9K is equal to high-end hasselblad h3dii-31 kit with a normal lens + you can hook your digiback to anything from a graflex, linhof to hassy V and mamiya not just a sensor Trapped inside a DSLR that costs €15K without lens. now I'm figuring why they call it S2 its Suicide mission 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 7, 2009 Share #137 Posted July 7, 2009 Neither the digital Rebel nor the latest EVF Panasonic camera is a suitable replacement for the R8/DMR so I've purchased a second DMR. ...and I'm holding onto mine as well, though I wish I had a clear upgrade path. For the record, I was not seriously considering a Digital Rebel--it was more of a hypothetical rhetorical question. I just don't want to wait 3 years to get the same or similar results I would get from another dSLR solution right now . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted July 7, 2009 Share #138 Posted July 7, 2009 {snipped}I go back to my point - I'm sure that Leica has a great future, but not in competing with Japanese camera companies who make their products in China. When people talk of a body price for an S2 in competition with a D3x . . it's laughable, it really is. . . . {snipped} No - I agree . . . or do I! I've been fiddling with a baby Olympus recently (EP-1), and the colour and image quality is really very good. Hey I'd take a CV-built R10, as long as it had the design, chip and image processing pipe from the S2 only scaled down. The problem with Panasonic is that they won't even consider working with Kodak or Fujitsu, and the "suitable R10 replacement" will be a "prosumer" thing and not a proper pro camera. But CV could build the "S-mini" and it would be sweet. I don't care if it says made in China as long as the lenses are Leica's Why should that cost more than a D3x again? The design, testing and body work has all be done, and the lenses are on their way! Heck, if I had a spare $50M lying around I'd convince Leica they should let me sub-contract it Interesting on the Oly. I actually was quite impressed by the video I saw from it! I wonder what sensor they're using? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bephoto Posted July 7, 2009 Share #139 Posted July 7, 2009 Olympus insists on the use of CCD or they call it Live MOS Comparing S2 to d3x is laughable but i wished we could!!! we must compare S2 to 1. Sinar Hy6 with AF Zeiss/Schneider Kreuznach Rollei Lenses with 80years of experience in medium format lens designs with Kodak/Dalsa/Eyelike digital technology. 2. Hasselblad V with Zeiss Topoftheline lenses attached to P65, P40, P30, P45 Phaseone digiback who deliver top imaging quality 3. Hasselblad H3dII-60, 50, 39, 31 with HC Fuji AF lenses with Zeiss design concepts 4. Mamiya ZDb with 22mp funny thing is S2 can only compete with Mamiya easily the others are well developed companies each with more than 60 years of experience in MF and LF field. i hope S2 (Suicide 2) proves me wrong. I think its time for Mr. Kobayashi to make Bessaflex DSLR with leica R mount and a set of Voigtlaender AF lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted July 7, 2009 Share #140 Posted July 7, 2009 Olympus insists on the use of CCD or they call it Live MOS nMOS is a variant of CMOS (complementary-symmetry metal–oxide–semiconductor) and the opposite to pMOS, not CCD (charge-coupled device) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.