hyper67 Posted November 8, 2006 Share #81 Posted November 8, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is my experience from designing software that usually trying to fix bugs under pressure - which I am sure the engineers at Leica are feeling as we speak-is usually a recipe for introducing other bugs into the system. One must be careful not to tip the balance in favor of one parameter whilst causing problems in an other area. It would be catastrophic to Leica if rushed decisions are made to satisfy its clients and a second attempt to fix problems is not satisfactory. They have made a mistake once - no matter what some people are saying here - but deserve the chance to make it right. For the interest of all involved, Leica should make an official statement - thus calming the buyers but also allowing itself the necessary breathing space to fix its problems. Any avoidance of such a statement will only hint towards the fact that Leica maybe in a bit of jam..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 8, 2006 Posted November 8, 2006 Hi hyper67, Take a look here Update from Leica-M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
cbretteville Posted November 8, 2006 Share #82 Posted November 8, 2006 Alex, Very, very true. I've had to fix issues in my code as file servers were invoulontarily down costing a customer money for each minute they were down. Those working conditions aren't exactly fun. - C Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted November 8, 2006 Share #83 Posted November 8, 2006 Before any public statement is made Leica must to be sure about what is happening, and if a hardware or software fix is needed. The worse case is that in which a hardware fix (a new sensor cover glass or microprocessor) is needed. Figure out. It would require months of additional work, to stop the production and distribution of current M8 cameras, etc. R. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetccox Posted November 8, 2006 Share #84 Posted November 8, 2006 I wanted a new M8 and so I spent a day on the internet and found one in Frankfurt at Foto-Hobby. It has been picked up by fed-ex today and is on its way to me in Poland for delivery tomorrow (hopefully). For 212 euros just for fed-ex from Frankfurt to Warsaw I hope they provide 1 day service! I since have been reading all the negative posts on this forum and am having withdrawal. Foto-hobby is a very big Leica dealer and is closely associated with the factory in Solms, which is nearby. My salesperson says that they have sold 4 cameras so far and no-one has complained. I have, but I don't have the camera yet. He called the man in charge of these technical problems, but he will not be in the office until Friday morning. Meanwhile, Leica is having a big demo show and auction at foto-hobby this weekend, and my salesman promised to discuss these issues with Leica representatives at the show. I will post anything that I find out - hopefully Friday. I am a member of dpreview, and have only recently started browsing this site. It is odd, but little or nothing has been said about these problems on the other forum so I was not really aware of the problems until a post led me here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoutman Posted November 8, 2006 Share #85 Posted November 8, 2006 I wanted a new M8 and so I spent a day on the internet and found one in Frankfurt at Foto-Hobby. It has been picked up by fed-ex today and is on its way to me in Poland for delivery tomorrow (hopefully). For 212 euros just for fed-ex from Frankfurt to Warsaw I hope they provide 1 day service! I since have been reading all the negative posts on this forum and am having withdrawal. Foto-hobby is a very big Leica dealer and is closely associated with the factory in Solms, which is nearby. My salesperson says that they have sold 4 cameras so far and no-one has complained. I have, but I don't have the camera yet. He called the man in charge of these technical problems, but he will not be in the office until Friday morning. Meanwhile, Leica is having a big demo show and auction at foto-hobby this weekend, and my salesman promised to discuss these issues with Leica representatives at the show. I will post anything that I find out - hopefully Friday. I am a member of dpreview, and have only recently started browsing this site. It is odd, but little or nothing has been said about these problems on the other forum so I was not really aware of the problems until a post led me here. Hello Chet and welcome to the forum. Congrats with your M8 and I am confident that you will enjoy it. Yes, some bugs have to be solved, but hey did you ever buy a new car ? My Bimmers get iDrive firmware updates on almost monthly basis Sure, your salesman knows nothing, but again that is the same with my salesman at the BMW garage: I have to tell him about all the bugs and problems I have discovered myself or through a forum. That's what forums are for anyway. One advantage of this very fine place that there are real experts around which dig in a problem or come with a solution....... let's hope Leica will follow soon. Michiel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetccox Posted November 8, 2006 Share #86 Posted November 8, 2006 Thank you Michiel for the welcome. Yes, of course I understand the problems with a new anything. The canon 5d, 20d, and 10d that I had previously all had their problems as well, which were fixed. My cars as well! I am on my second Hewlett Packard B9180 printer as the first one out of the box had streaking problems and a bad printhead. It just seems that the pictures posted most recently of the M7 and M8 with the obvious purple color should certainly have been seen by anyone using the camera before it was released. There will certainly be problems with any new product but one would think the very obvious ones would have been fixed. It would be embarassing to have a new Mercedes with purple headlights because no-one ever bothered to turn them on before they were sent to the dealers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted November 8, 2006 Share #87 Posted November 8, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello Chet and welcome to the forum. Congrats with your M8 and I am confident that you will enjoy it. Yes, some bugs have to be solved, but hey did you ever buy a new car ? Michiel The kind of "bugs" the M8 is having are the equivalent of finding your new car has no brakes, or turns left when you steer right. As a professional photographer, there is no way I would take the M8 to a shoot right now with any confidence. The camera reproduces black as magenta, has banding problems in many situations and sometimes just shuts down for no apparent reason. These are hardly small concerns. Even my first digital camera, the Nikon D1, performed better than that out of the box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
blovitch Posted November 8, 2006 Share #88 Posted November 8, 2006 I tried to address some of my concerns with the UK Leica office, who have a designated contact for professional Leica users, I have spoken to him before about issues with the doomed 1.2 firmware on the DMR. He was not aware of the Magenta issue and stated that one of the biggest problems so far was the lack of C1 licence number stickers on some UK issued disk envelopes. He suggested that any issues encountered were being dealt with in Solms, but as far as he was aware it was all ok, and he was not aware of any serious problems. I was unimpressed, and remain so. The level of investment required for Leica equipment is not currently being met with an appropriate customer service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B&W Posted November 8, 2006 Share #89 Posted November 8, 2006 I tried to address some of my concerns with the UK Leica office, who have a designated contact for professional Leica users, I have spoken to him before about issues with the doomed 1.2 firmware on the DMR. He was not aware of the Magenta issue and stated that one of the biggest problems so far was the lack of C1 licence number stickers on some UK issued disk envelopes. He suggested that any issues encountered were being dealt with in Solms, but as far as he was aware it was all ok, and he was not aware of any serious problems. I was unimpressed, and remain so. The level of investment required for Leica equipment is not currently being met with an appropriate customer service. Sad story! Hopefully they will do better soon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrielma Posted November 9, 2006 Share #90 Posted November 9, 2006 The kind of "bugs" the M8 is having are the equivalent of finding your new car has no brakes, or turns left when you steer right. Isn't that just a little exaggerated? The same comparison to me would be having the card formatted with every shot taken, pictures corrupted, etc. To be fair, I think it's the equivalent of seeing the speedometer tell you you're driving at 60 kph when in reality you should adjust to 55 kph if the sunlight is hitting the road at a certain angle and at a certain temperature during a certain time of the year. Not the way you want to drive, but it's not making you steer left when you mean to steer right. Disappointing? Yes. Very. But it's mainly at the lack of public response from Leica. They say they have a fix? Great. Let us hear it officially. I'm sure lots of people can take a chill pill after that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogopix Posted November 9, 2006 Share #91 Posted November 9, 2006 I believe it is unfair for people to rant who do not even own the camera, and who will never see the great value Leica instruments have. Yes there are what are called 'lemon' laws to protect the consumer, and I think the M8 is VERY far from that. Cameras have had posterization, moire, jaggies, lenses have flare and soft corners, priters clog, and have metamerism the list goes on, the issues get fixed. But where I live there are also laws that says you cannot park a car with a 5 foot lemon on it in front of the dealer! Some of the comments here get close to the latter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
msadat Posted November 9, 2006 Share #92 Posted November 9, 2006 These guys never shot with the contax ND and don't know what we have endured or can tolerate, M8 is a keeper I shot more again yesterday. I'll welcome any adjustments by Leica, but the results of shooting with it have me very excited about this camera even as it stands now. The prints are freakin' beautiful, and for many shots it promises to replace the brick of a Canon I have to carry around at weddings all day. I have just received a M8 shot my pal Irakly grabbed upon arriving in Russia yesterday. ISO 2500 B&W conversion. I've asked his permission to post it here 'cause it's lovely. Keep the faith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted November 9, 2006 Share #93 Posted November 9, 2006 I think this may be different than the ND, although that was an unpleasent experience for the first 8 months of ownership. And if you recall Kyocera did nothing to solve it... WE DID. WE got Adobe to support the RAW files. WE hunted down better power solutions. WE shared techniques. Hopefully WE won't have to solve this one ourselves, because the Contax ND convinced me it just isn't worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frc Posted November 9, 2006 Share #94 Posted November 9, 2006 Christian, have you noticed your avatar. It's got a magenta cast. ;-) Fr. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 10, 2006 Share #95 Posted November 10, 2006 These guys never shot with the contax ND and don't know what we have endured or can tolerate, M8 is a keeper Damn right. I shot with the ND and I'm keeping the M8 no doubt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted November 10, 2006 Share #96 Posted November 10, 2006 Members of the forum who want to actually discuss their concerns about a $5000 camera which they either have on order or in their hands are having to put up with a great deal of abuse. Is it possible that we can discuss the M8 problems without having to be continually baited as "whiners" or "nay-sayers"? The concerns are REAL for many people. In addition, i'd prefer that posters stick to the facts as they're known, and try to refrain from statements like "most photographers will never encounter these problems", or "Leica have so much riding on the M8 that they MUST have a fix". Neither of these is necessarily true - any more than that the magenta/black problem can be 'fixed' with the (grotesquely blunt instrument) of Replace Color. PLEASE NOTE: This is from someone who WANTS Leica to FIX the M8 that i have on order - and not sell it to some unsuspecting sucker who hasn't informed him/herself about the issues so many people here seem to want to keep hushed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexr Posted November 10, 2006 Share #97 Posted November 10, 2006 I tried to address some of my concerns with the UK Leica office, who have a designated contact for professional Leica users, I have spoken to him before about issues with the doomed 1.2 firmware on the DMR. He was not aware of the Magenta issue and stated that one of the biggest problems so far was the lack of C1 licence number stickers on some UK issued disk envelopes. He suggested that any issues encountered were being dealt with in Solms, but as far as he was aware it was all ok, and he was not aware of any serious problems. I was unimpressed, and remain so. The level of investment required for Leica equipment is not currently being met with an appropriate customer service. Tim, I am in the uk too and would also like to get in touch with their pro-contact. can you send me the phone number? Also, I would like say this: don't the people on these threads work? What happens when you make a major mistake at work? You get a chance to solve it, and if you don't they tell you to look for another job. For us professional photographers it is even worse. You mess up one job, you never work for that client again. And so it should be. Leica has made a huge mistake. They have the amazing luck of a fan-base (because these days, unfortunately, their client base is formed not by users, but by fans) who will give them the chance to put it right. If they don't, they deserve to go down. I have to survive in a environment where I am not allowed mistakes, why should my preferred tool-provider not be made to play by the same rules? This is a turning point. If the Co. does not come out of this with immaculate flying colors, it will be the end of Leica as a professional camera maker. And I am being kind. Most of my colleagues already consider it a semi-professional company. Remember? there was a time when all photographers were leica photographers. Was it because they loved leica? No. It was because they could not afford not to. As soon as they could, they started voting with their feet. The new car analogy is correct. But when a new car has bad issues there is a recall. The fact that this will not happen to the M8 is a sign that the Co. knows it can do it to its fans and get away with it. I consider ithis a dreadful sign that leica is not interested any more to provide tools for people such as myself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 10, 2006 Share #98 Posted November 10, 2006 There must be people in Solms who know the real deal. I think Leica have some tough questions to ask and decisions to make. What's involved in fixing this camera? New sensor, new firmware, new electronics? Or all three? How much time, how much money? Stop production now? Stop shipping now? Recall cameras in the distribution chain? Take all the cameras back? I am really sorry that things have turned out this way and I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes, but I do understand it's difficult for professional photographers who have customers to satisfy and deadlines to meet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 10, 2006 Share #99 Posted November 10, 2006 There must be people in Solms who know the real deal. I think Leica have some tough questions to ask and decisions to make. What's involved in fixing this camera? New sensor, new firmware, new electronics? Or all three? How much time, how much money? Stop production now? Stop shipping now? Recall cameras in the distribution chain? Take all the cameras back? I am really sorry that things have turned out this way and I'm happy to wait for as long as it takes, but I do understand it's difficult for professional photographers who have customers to satisfy and deadlines to meet. Maybe they're just a bit slow ? We're reacting at Internet speed. They may be thinking that they have more time to react. My feeling is theM8 will save their finances, but severely damage their reputation. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfleica Posted November 10, 2006 Share #100 Posted November 10, 2006 Damn right. I shot with the ND and I'm keeping the M8 no doubt i love my ND. But it was long hard work (by the users and third party raw software engineers) getting it sorted out. The m8 still needs a lot of work, but i hope it will be sorted out much, much more quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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