hyper67 Posted November 7, 2006 Share #41 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think that its hard to be both a reviwer and a tester at the same time. The two should be distinct from each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 7, 2006 Posted November 7, 2006 Hi hyper67, Take a look here review quality. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #42 Posted November 7, 2006 An overreaction is taking place, I on this agree with Sean.Just look at all the threads about banding green things and more coming from mars. The chances of anything bad coming from Leica are a milion to one, they say. ( War of the Worlds, but a bit different ) The best reviewer, and I think Sean will agree with me, is a whole bunch of people actualy using a device in real life. No way one person can cover everything. Wasn't everyone demanding a fast release of the camera, and wasn't everyone raving for reviews. "What's the camera like?" Like me many of us will want to wait a bit longer before purchase because of the bugs reveiled. This however does not justify any Leica bashing, nor Sean bashing either. If it would turn out Leica would eventualy not fix the problems on the items sold so far, it would be a completely different situation. To me this seems unimaginable. For the time being, speculating on the isue or cursing reviewers is not approbatory from my point of view. Indeed, many people testing will be more thorough than one. I think some people are taking advantage of the fact that I participate in this forum to vent their frustrations at me rather than at Leica and that's very childish. Is it any wonder that many reasonable people are reluctant to participate in forums? If this is the way things are going to continue here, I will just stop participating. I'm here as a fellow photographer and a resource but not as a punching bag. In short, if you're unhappy with Leica don't take it out on me and other reviewers. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 7, 2006 Share #43 Posted November 7, 2006 Folks I would not worry about this stuff for a moment. First Leica will take care of most of this stuff with a quick firmware issue. Second I have been on bleeding edge for so long now , this stuff I laugh at it anymore. Everyone has issues. My Mac , My Canons, My washer the list goes on including my DMR. Still i can produce the best images possible with buggy firmware, I can still wash my cloths. This is not life threatning and we all just need to calm down. I know it is frustrating i just bought 2 of them knowing the issues. I am not worried but i understand the issue' folks are having but no one is talking about the 90 percent on how good it is. The other 10 percent will get fixed just be happy they are jumping on it and most likely by next week there will be new firmware to upload. Anyone biuy a Kodak 14n, or Canon's 20 d, 5d, 1ds, etc. They all had firmware issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #44 Posted November 7, 2006 Calm down Sean, don't let people ruin your day. Go out and do some shots. ;-) I wish, way too much work to do here that requires the computer. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddp Posted November 7, 2006 Share #45 Posted November 7, 2006 This Chicken Little syndrome is laughable. Over 6 years of using pro level Nikon DSLR's - I've seen magenta cast issues, back focus problems and poor TTL flash integration. Nikon addresses the problems by offering firmware upgrades and adjustments as needed. Leica has offered two very good digital solutions for those invested in their M&R lens lineup. They're not leave anyone high & dry here - but there are some risks to being an early adapter to new technology. Whether it's the first model year in a car (ask me about my 2002 MINI Cooper) or a Nikon D1, things may crop up as stuff comes to the mass market. Nothing to freak out about.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted November 7, 2006 Share #46 Posted November 7, 2006 I wish, way too much work to do here that requires the computer. Sean Sean, Let it go if you can. I'm the editor of a magazine with 2.8 million readers and get hate mail that would make a sailor blush -- it goes with the territory. Best, Larry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bernd Banken Posted November 7, 2006 Share #47 Posted November 7, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Two things I don't understand, viewed with some distance as a non-buyer of a M8: 1. Most Canon and Nikon DSLRs showed after their release banding. This was solved. Everybody in digital fotography business is informed about this issue for years. Question: Why this so very simple test was not done? Keep in mind that this M8 is not the first Digicam. And a lot of early users had the same problem with N&Cs. 2. When a non final-production camera is tested, there should only be tested the handling and not the output because as mentioned above, no tester knows what there will be changed in specs while he is typing his report... I'm sure that Leica will/can fix these issues, but they should handle it in a positive and offensive behaveior against their customers. Bernd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
osera Posted November 7, 2006 Share #48 Posted November 7, 2006 ...Everyone has issues... Exactly. And not just with cameras, of course. In my other world, I deal with medical imaging devices, all very expensive (think MRI). Do they work perfectly right out of the box? Of course not. Would I see more stable & consistent initial results if I used less-than-cutting-edge systems? Always. Do I prefer to be on the cutting edge, and deal with the inevitable issues? Always. Am I bothered when there are glitches? Always. Do I lose money if the machines do not operate as expected? Sometimes, but not in the long run. Do I lose sleep about it? Never. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #49 Posted November 7, 2006 Sean, Let it go if you can. I'm the editor of a magazine with 2.8 million readers and get hate mail that would make a sailor blush -- it goes with the territory. Best, Larry Hi Larry, I know. The more popular RR gets, the more of this nonsense I see. One solution, that would also give me back some time, would be to just stay clear of the forums altogether. That's increasingly where I'm headed. Who wants the headaches? Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 7, 2006 Share #50 Posted November 7, 2006 If your camera locks and goes dead, then your are unlucky and should send it back for maintenance. Because you are the only one with this problem. The colors are ok if you know how to do a WB. If you have a problem at 2400K, I gave some solutions and they are easy to implement. But blaming the reviewers and beta-testers won't solve your problems and is clearly unfair. How could they predict that your camera would lock if it is the only to exhibit such a flaw ? Pascal, As for the lock-up; why do you assume I am the only one to have them ? I had the first one inside my retail shop, the salesman recognized the symptoms immediately and pulled the battery. It's very clear I'm not the first to have had such a lock-up right in that shop, And yes, this is typical of a bug which every product has during testing. But not at release. Pro cameras that lock up become vacation cameras very quickly. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 7, 2006 Share #51 Posted November 7, 2006 Edit ABr That's simply not true. Obviously, you're not a professional reviewer. Leica wasn't too happy with some of my comments in the first review but they didn't block my access to their products. Product loans don't influence reviews but advertising dollars can. Enough with the conspiracy theories. Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted November 7, 2006 Share #52 Posted November 7, 2006 If your camera locks and goes dead, then your are unlucky and should send it back for maintenance. Because you are the only one with this problem. Unfortunately, he is not the only one. I just heard from another M8 owner who had precisely the same problem with his camera going dead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted November 7, 2006 Share #53 Posted November 7, 2006 Right. There seems to have been a bit of an unnecessary and unwelcome problem on this thread today that needs nipping in the bud now. (This is the first time I for one have had a chance to read any threads today - some of us have work to do too ) However, I have yellow cards at the ready gentlemen. The time for personal sniping and accusations against testers and/or reviewers is over (indeed, it never started on this forum at least). It's clearly not their fault if their review cameras, or software or anything, do not show the same symptoms as a camera you have or have read about. Or if a man in the pub's brother spoke to someone on a train about an issue he'd heard about ... No one can test a camera in every condition imaginable, or with every lens available. Testers are (allegedly ) only human. These issues with the M8 are clearly real and unfortunate. But, as has been said above, it is inconceivable that Leica are not working round the clock to sort them - this product is fundamental to their success in the coming years and I am sure that they will not rest until they are sorted. Anyone with a problem has a warranty - you know where to use it. Give the guys who do the reviews a break. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 7, 2006 Share #54 Posted November 7, 2006 Thank you Andy and well said. Theme of the day calm down and let the magic box get fixed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted November 7, 2006 Share #55 Posted November 7, 2006 Pascal, As for the lock-up; why do you assume I am the only one to have them ? I had the first one inside my retail shop, the salesman recognized the symptoms immediately and pulled the battery. It's very clear I'm not the first to have had such a lock-up right in that shop. Edmund Edmund--Was there a quick fix for this, like putting in a different battery? Or did the camera have to go in for repair? Thanks, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted November 7, 2006 Share #56 Posted November 7, 2006 This is a particularly nasty thread and seems wedded to the idea that there's been some sort of conspiracy, so let me nail my colours to the mast. The camera has been out for a week. Leica shipped it earlier than any of us dared hope and we're finding a few issues. If you honestly thought the product would be 100% clean this soon, you're being hopelessly naive. I used to develop supermarket checkout systems for IBM in Raleigh, NC (Lucky Stores, Ralphs, Pathmark, K-Mart, Publix, Wegmans anyone?) and we always knew that however much testing we did, a new system would get a more thorough test on its first morning of live operation in the real world. And so it is with the M8. They've done lots of testing for sure but put it in new sets of hands with different priorities and different issues will show up. The Leica M8 is a remarkable amalgam of mechanics, optics, electronics and software which few companies their size could bring to market, never mind while aiming at the very top. Even though there are some issues to work through, they've done a brilliant job. Did I hear anyone say "Microsoft". I used to employ someone who went on to work on the SQL server development team - their flagship database product. The last time I spoke to him, he told me that for every bug they fixed, they were introducing something like 0.8 new ones. What a mess. Windows Vista? Delayed and delayed. No thanks. The Leica people I met at Photokina are rightly proud of what they have achieved, bringing the company back from near bankrupcy. Otto Domes, one of the chief development engineers cradled the camera in his hands for me to photograph, his pride was palpable. They will be hurting as much as anyone that there are some issues. I feel sure the lights in Solms are burning late into the night as they figure out how best to move forwards. And move forwards they will, and soon enough, they will have a solution. There's no conspiracy going on here. Sean Reid and Michael Reichmann are giving us their honest and helpful opinions. If you're risk averse, if your natural reaction to any setback is to look for someone to blame, my advice to you is to stay sitting on the fence so that you can gloat and indulge in a little "schadenfreude". The rest of us are more than happy to be enjoying one of the most significant cameras of our lifetimes. Do I regret being one of the first people in the UK with an M8? Not for one microsecond. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8680-review-quality/?do=findComment&comment=86611'>More sharing options...
abrewer Posted November 7, 2006 Share #57 Posted November 7, 2006 Agree with Andy. It's a camera, not cancer. Use your warranty privileges. You paid for them. Return it if you must. But don't bash Sean and Michael, or others, for their just editorial license in this regard. Thanks. Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted November 7, 2006 Share #58 Posted November 7, 2006 Well you are the only one to report the problem here. So why blame the reviewers ? Mail to Leica, have your camera repaired and give Sean a break. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayh Posted November 7, 2006 Share #59 Posted November 7, 2006 As everyone may gather, I am not exactly a happy camper about the capabilities of the M8 as it was delivered. But I think it is much more productive to address problems instead of people. I'd be much more interested in hearing from other users as they find workarounds for the problems this camera clearly has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviskennedy Posted November 7, 2006 Share #60 Posted November 7, 2006 Sean, no disrespect intended, but if you charge for your reviews where most others offer them free of charge you should expect to take a little more heat. Just like with the M8, if one pays a lot for it they expect more from it - reasonable or not. Elvis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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