M8 Viewfinder

[ho_co]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Would someone tell me: What finder frames does the 24mm M key?

 

I have an older 21mm M (Canadian, first after the Super-Angulon) which keys the 28/90 frame lines. Do late 21 M's also key the 28 frame?

 

I figure we should be able to figure out what the M8 finder will look like from what we know, but of course that can all change. Leica M 28mm lenses at one time keyed the 35mm frame, but then a new retrofocal 28 came out which keyed the 90mm frame. No one could figure out why till the M5 appeared several months later.

 

Thanks!

 

--HC

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[marknorton]

The current 21mm Elmarit also keys the 28/90 frame.

 

I don't think Leica will have gone to all this trouble with the lens coding and fancy sensor imbedded in the lens mount if all it did was to put the focal length in the file header.

 

The list of supported lenses totals about 30 optical variants (ignoring black/chrome) and I don't think for one minute that Leica will open it up to compatible lenses. This is as much to do with tying you in to Leica lenses as it is with image quality but Leica still has to demonstrate compelling reasons to use the coding and have the lenses upgraded.

 

It would be quite feasible for new lenses introduced after the camera first ships to come with SD cards to load the information into the camera. You buy your APO 21-28-35-50-75 Penta-Summilux-M ASPH (you heard it here first) and teach the camera how to use it.

 

There's been lots of comment about making the camera upgradeable to allow new sensors to be fitted, wishful thinking in my view and I don't think it's at all likely. On the other hand, equipping the camera with plenty of spare flash memory capacity gives you considerable flexibility to keep the camera up to date with firmware revisions.

 

I hope they haven't skimped on that. I once worked on the firmware of a non-photographic product and in those days (early 90's), the processor had 8k bytes of memory for its program. We shipped the product with just 2 spare bytes...

[ho_co]

Would someone tell me: What finder frames does the 24mm M key?

 

(System isn't allowing me to edit my previous message asking for info on what frames the 24mm keys; am still curious in that regard.)

 

Here's the way I see the M8 finder:

28mm lens keys 37, 120 frames

35mm lens keys 47 frame

50mm lens keys 67, 100 frames

75mm lens keys 67, 100 frames

90mm lens keys 37, 120 frames

135/2.8 lens keys 37, 120 frames

 

This amounts to leaving all lenses are they are now, but adjusting the frames by the announced 4/3 crop factor.

 

If it's technically feasible, add a 28mm frame to the 37, 120 frameset, which is keyed by the 21mm. (This would be a set of three frames together.) Add to the above list:

21mm lens keys 28, 37, 120 frames;

and change the entries for 28mm and 90mm lenses appropriately.

 

If it's technically feasible, add a 32mm frame to the 47 one, and see that the 24mm keys that set. (This would add a second set of framelines to the one that had only one.) Add to the above list:

24mm lens keys 32, 47 frames;

and change the entry for 35mm lens appropriately

 

Above is based on using the 0.72x finder, which has been the most popular for Leica and which would then enable use of all lenses from 21mm through 90mm plus 135/2.8 without external viewfinder.

 

Caveat: Above is based on the following assumption, which may not be accurate:

>>Since the crop factor is simply a factor by which a lens's field of view is reduced, and since there is no change in the lens itself, I think there should be no need to increase rangefinder magnification.<<

 

Assuming the inaccuracy of that assumption, then the 0.85x finder would likely do the job. It would not allow us the 28 frame for the 21mm lens, of course, and I'm not sure whether it would be able to give us the 32 frame for the 24mm lens. The question in both cases of rangefinder magnification is whether the rangefinder base length would be accurate enough for the 90/2 (120/2.7 equiv) and the 135/2.8 (180/3.7 equiv). [i think I've applied the format factor correctly to calculate equivalent aperture as explained in LFI 3/2006. In fact, what'll you bet that the occasion for Peter Karbe's address wasn't an examination of the digital M's rangefinder parameters? ]

 

That's my theory. You're invited to shoot it down.

 

--HC

[ho_co]

Mark--Good analysis again.

 

Thanks for the verification on the current 21 M Elmarit.

 

Thirty variants? Six bits allows 64 different values, so they've got plenty left. Even more with data packing. Maybe they could code the focal length in one part, the speed in another.

 

Compelling reason? Compared to anything else from Leica, it's cheap; and since they haven't spelled out exactly what it does, we better do it just in case my guess is wrong!

 

"You buy your APO 21-28-35-50-75 Penta-Summilux-M ASPH (you heard it here first) and teach the camera how to use it." --I just called my dealer and ordered one! --I understand that idea and would like to buy into it. But I hesitate because Leica isn't being so forceful about having the work done as they are with the ROM lenses for R, and they're not saying exactly what gets done. I also think I can foresee an error along the line of this: A dealer has an older lens, a Tri-Elmar version 7, say, with its updating software. I buy that lens and update my firmware, but someone had neglected to include a version check in the Tri-Elmar version 7 software, and it overwrites the software update that came with the APO 21-28-35-50-75 Penta-Summilux-M ASPH. Now, since I'm not too smart, I blame Leica and ship the camera in for repair because my dealer just doesn't want to deal with me (and probably doesn't know the lenses come with their own updates anyway).

 

Maybe a better solution would be just to post the latest software on the Leica website and ask digital owners to check for updates periodically. But you're right, it can be done.

 

I agree that Leica won't want to open the zebra coding up to competitors. And if it's only focal length and aperture, the only thing that would keep Joe Blow (or Zeiss) from doing the same thing would be the cost of the milling machine and expected return on investment. Joe Blow wouldn't go that route, but Zeiss might. That's a strong argument for your view.

 

I agree that it's highly unlikely that the sensor will be upgradeable. I could put a Ferrari engine in my Jetta, too, but it would likely be less expensive and more fun just to buy the Ferrari!

 

In regard to Leica skimping on something, I think they know this camera has to be right. I think they're going to do everything they can to make it as good as they can.

 

(That's why I was both gratified and a little alarmed to read in the speech to the stockholders the statement: "I can assure you already that the product we are creating is something really special and will give the company a lot of tailwind." A maritime metaphor may not be best for what might be a sinking ship. )

 

--HC

[lct]

....That's my theory. You're invited to shoot it down...

OK let's try.

According to formulas i referred to previously, a .78x VF magnification would be just enough for 90/2 and 75/1.4 lenses to be focussed accurately at full aperture.

Then either (a) the M8 will have that kind of magnification and a wider finder window to fit the 21mm (28 FoV) frame lines but how about existing goggles then? or ( there will be 2 or more different magnifications in:

(b1) separate bodies

(b2) or same body with interchangeable VFs

(b3) or same body with variable VF magnification...

... in my most humble opinion.

[lct]

...The question in both cases of rangefinder magnification is whether the rangefinder base length would be accurate enough for the 90/2 (120/2.7 equiv) and the 135/2.8 (180/3.7 equiv). [i think I've applied the format factor correctly to calculate equivalent aperture as explained in LFI 3/2006. ...

This LFI article referred to DoF in a confused way IMHO.

Apertures don't change with crop factors.

A f/2 lens on a M6 remains a f/2 lens on the R-D1 and will remain a f/2 lens on the M8, no problem about this.

[marknorton]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

As an engineer, I'm going to be very interested in the solution they've come up with.

 

It's going to be interesting because there's a conflict between achieving what most of us would regard as the ideal solution and compatability with what is out there now. The more you enforce compatability with every widget which has gone before, the less likely you will achieve your ideal solution. Then there's cost, size, weight and timescale constraints as well.

 

Some things cannot be changed - the thousands of lenses out there which identify themselves in one of 3 groups (and I'm including the 21 and probably the 24 in the 28/90 group).

 

Other things could be changed but probably will not be. The need to support the macro adapter says the windows are not moving and the base rangefinder length is staying the same.

 

Other things might change, depending on how daring they have been and how much money there was in the budget. An LCD to project frame lines instead of the expensive masks. A variable magnification viewfinder built in without having to decide at purchase time. Using the lens coding if present to project just a single frameline based on the actual lens mounted. No more aux finders, except maybe for the 15mm f2.8. A large eye-piece for eye-glass wearers.

 

Other things must be changed to make it work, specifically the revised masks (if that is what they are using) to reflect the different angle of view and the adoption of an appropriate magnification. Also, the current aux finder will not be usable if you want accurate framing. Sure, you can set it to 28, mount your 21 lens and it will be OK, but what about the 24mm lens?

 

The viewfinder is the USP of this camera and if all they've done is tweak the masks and the magnification and come up with a new aux finder, they've missed a trick IMHO.

 

More generally, I really hope there is something about the M8 which will surprise and delight us beyond what we think we know and assume (top quality images). Something we haven't thought about or didn't think they'd do, something to create a bit of a stir, something beyond "It's just Leica's take on the R-D1".

[marknorton]

LCT,

 

Interchangeable viewfinders. Now there's a thought!

[lct]

Or a variable VF, why not?

It is so simple to use the 1.25x magnifier right now, why couldn't the same be achieved into the camera by some (manual please) control?

I'm no engineer though...

[marknorton]

A built in variable magnification finder would be fine. Two settings to allow overlapping use with mid-range lenses. Imagine a shuttle dial knob like the R-D1 where the rewind knob should be, and a lever around its base to set the magnification - forwards for high magnification (for longer lenses), back for low magnification (for wider lenses). How good would that be. Goodbye magnifiers, goodbye aux finders, one M8 body for all.

[lct]

Exactly!

[humanized_form]

i'm also very curious to see what other information is displayed in the Digital M viewfinder. personally i like the simplicity of the shutter speed display and ISO info in the M7. when shooting in DNG mode the M8 viewfinder could be very similar to an M7.

 

i'm guessing a small LCD on top of the camera could display ISO, whitebalance, battery life etc and that when a parameter (like ISO) is changed it would briefly be illuminated in the viewfinder.

 

thoughts?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Kevin I am going to guess here but i would think like the DMR in this case leica may go the same path as far as where the info is. In the viewfinder i would say shutter,aperture, ISO and exposure compensation. Maybe amount on card left.

Now the back LCD may carry everything else like battery life but it could easily be put in viewfinder but i would guess WB, battery life and anything that is not immediately essential to taking the shot would go to back of LCD and the viewfinder carries the shooting info. i just don't think we will see a top LCD display. Viewfinder and rear LCD on the M and this may have more to do with real estate than anything else.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Now the one thing I INSIST on seeing is the big white line Histo across the entire 2.5 LCD right after the shot like the DMR has. I simply cannot tell you that is maybe the best feature around and I shot digital for almost 12 years and the DMR white line histo is a God send. So if we have to scram , bite and claw at Leica to continue this on the M it is worth every effort. ther is nothing worse than seeing a small histo in a big screen that you cannot see. The white line across tells you at a glance that you are in or out of exposure

[Bob Ross]

Mark,

The LCD in the viewfinder for frames could be a great approach, if not for Leica, then for the clone builders. A projected LCD or a transparent TFT could represent framelines taking the focal length and the distance (from the rangefinder) and place & size the frame lines. A color LCD/TFT could also be used to pick colors for the frame lines to give the best contrast for your subject. The rangefinder patch probably would not move with the frame center and be more like the R-d1 & ZI. The LCD/TFT could also be used for giving shooting data. I had thought on this for a possible fixed lens P&S with an M type viewfinder, where the lens talks to the LCD/TFT to adjust frame lines for a 2 0r 3X zoom. Inseting a LCD where the present frameline masks are would also be a simple & mechanatronic solution...:-)

[marknorton]

This is the information the user will want to know while shooting without having to switch on the LCD:

 

- Shutter Speed/AE

- ISO

- WB

- Memory Capacity Remaining

- EV +/-

- Battery State

- Quality

 

It will be interesting to see how they've done it. No wind-on lever so where will the shutter release be, separate or in the middle of the shutter dial? There's lots about this camera we do not know!

[rvaubel]

This is the information the user will want to know while shooting without having to switch on the LCD:

 

- Shutter Speed/AE

- ISO

- WB

- Memory Capacity Remaining

- EV +/-

- Battery State

- Quality

 

Mark

I'm suprised that you want all that information in the viewfinder. Shows how people vary in there taste and requirements. For me, 7 different elements in the viewfinder just clutters things up. I just want to know the variables that I need to know for that particular shot.

- Shutter speed

- Apeture

- ISO

- EV+/-

 

Why would you want to have picture quality on every shot? Granted, I shoot RAW exclusively, but still I wouldn't be changing often enough for a shot by shot update. WB also seems like something I leave for the situation at hand and don't need continual reminder.

 

Both the charge on the battery and the number of "frames" remaining is something that I only need to know in a rough kind of sense. I know when I need to change batteries or cards without a display in the viewfinder.

 

To me all this extra info just represents clutter that I would like displayed elsewhere. The RD1 is my ideal with this regard. Those cute little analog gauges on top of the camera really work well. I wish that Leica would implement such a display but realistically only Epson/Seiko (watches, remember them?) has the expertiese.

 

In lieu of analog gauges, I would prefer a top mounted continous display LCD. The idea would be to keep all that info from being buried in menus on the back LCD. That keeps things simple.

 

Simply and intuitive is good.

 

Rex

[marknorton]

Rex,

 

Hah! I didn't say I need those in the viewfinder! I agree that would really clutter things up and remind me of the D2... sometimes it's difficult to see what you're shooting with all the icons in the way.

 

I'm not a big fan of the monochrome LCDs but they can be left running all the time with no power implications (unless there's a backlight) and the major settings could be displayed there on the top or the back.

 

In the VF, you're right, we only need information for the shot - shutter speed, manual metering info, maybe flash info. There would no aperture info of course, the camera doesn't know it.

 

I agree absolutely about simplicity. The R-D1 is cluttered with things like print order and slide show which are a waste of time. I don't think it will have the R-D1's dials though, it would immediately be seen as plagiarism, hopefully Leica have come up with their own innovative solution.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[leicapfile]

With all the speculation on this and other posts (and forums) concerning the M8, the gnomes of Solms must really be smiling!

 

Jerry

[lct]

the gnomes of Solms must really be smiling

Not a sickly smile hopefully as self satisfaction has cost them a lot already.