Guest guy_mancuso Posted June 10, 2009 Share #41 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have to laugh Simon no one else is doing it so that does throw the question out is it a viable product. Big question mark and right now with 4 months of the ugliest downturn I have seen in 33 years as a Pro and everyone I talk to is saying the same thing even the big dogs and no real sign of it ending anytime soon. Not a freaking chance is it viable right now. Let's talk next year is maybe when we see Pro's actually dropping real money again. Many are dropping back to DSLR's to survive the market. It will be up to the hobbyists to carry the torch for awhile. Bottom line just shit timing for Leica and that is just too bad for them. Not much really they can do except wait it out like everyone else. I'm wondering if it is even worth the launch of it. It is just that bad, I see on my forum many folks jumping on the Sony and given there choices in the 22mpx plus in DSLR they are all jumping on it mainly for price. I will say though I like the Sony a lot myself. It's a DMR with AF and I said that many months ago when I started seeing the files being shot and posted. There is a big push on this system right now and a lot of folks are buying it because it is good and it has a nice price tag on it. Next week I have 9 folks on my workshop this is a small one and there are 3 Sony shooters, 1 Canon 5DII, I Nikon D3x, 1 M8 , 1 MF ALpa Max system and 2 Phase/Mamiya shooters. That is a far cry from a year ago when it was Canon and M8 shooters mostly. Plus a few MF shooters. Folks are looking at price and ability right now. I wish Leica luck on this but no way am i even considering it for a long time. One because of the market and 2 it is not ready for me until it actually makes some sense in all the depts. that make it a true viable working system on all the touch points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 10, 2009 Posted June 10, 2009 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here S2 to be shown in Paris 06/06. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pascal_meheut Posted June 10, 2009 Share #42 Posted June 10, 2009 Here's a question for you.Let's say you own a company and came up with a brilliant, new idea for a product. Would you go ahead and announce that brilliant, paradigm changing idea to the world without actually having all your ducks in a row???? I'm pretty sure you would not do that. I own a company, we came up with new approaches in our field and I announced it way before it was available. I even made the first sales to a big customer this way and by just showing a mockup. Incredible, isnt'it ? Why? Because people like you don't count. You are a follower, the kind who says "it will never work" and who needs to prove constantly that he is smart, he knows it all and that the others are stupid unless they already dominate their field. People like that never buy anything really new, they simply cannot see the interest as they judge everything by its street rep, not by themselves. So when a company announces a product before it is available, it cares mainly of other people, mainly the ones who stopped posting in threads like this one a long time ago. And when it comes to the competition, it does not work that way if you really have something new. Because most of your competitors won't believe in it (the "not invented here" syndrome), others will wait and would have a hard time changing anyway because selling an innovative product is quite hard for most company (read "The Innovator's Dilemna" if you want to learn something for once). Just as usual, I guess it is easier to back-seat drive Leica from this forum like you do than to value real experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted June 10, 2009 Share #43 Posted June 10, 2009 "Well, if you look at the S2 as a MF camera, the S2 is even worse of a crop-camera than the P40+. Period. If you look at it as a 35mm camera on steroids, the S2 makes even less sense. Early next year Canon will release the 1DS Mark IV with 30+ MP. For probably half the money the S2 will cost." It's not a matter of perspective, a crop-camera is using a smaller sensor than the rest of the system (lenses, shutter, mirror, viewfinder...) is designed for, making it bulkier and heavier than necessary. Well, if you can always shoot f8, you mostly wouldn't even notice big differences between the better Mamiya-lenses. But thats pure studio-work and the Mamiya doesn't even have a central shutter... You need MF-quality but still want a compact, robust and fast system. Indeed, nobody except Leica seems interested in this market. You haven't seen the S2-images shown during presentations, have you? Otherwise you wouldn't come up with the Canon MkIV or any other 35mm-press-camera-system. "Even" the >20MP-MkIII/D3x outresolve the lenses in most situations, there were many reasons why the MkII was better than the MkI, the MkIII better than the MkII... but it wasn't mainly the resolution. I know, it feels like an eternity, we've waited for so long and Leica should finally give new informations, David Farkas Blog is the best information source anywhere! Great for David, but a bad sign for Leica's marketing! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 10, 2009 Share #44 Posted June 10, 2009 S2 is a cropped MF camera?? I do not see it that way at all..it is a new format, a full frame format maximizing the viewfinder as the name implies. Medium format? that is film terminology, you have to let go at some point and look at this in a new fresh way like Leica has, it is the first professional digital camera to utilize a new format. If you view the world through film crops you don't get it. I think Leica has just raised the bar on what is possible from a small hi res. reflex camera and there will be many who get it..both intellectually and in the flesh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share #45 Posted June 10, 2009 You have it spot on there Paul. The S2 isn't cropped at all and losing film terminology is the only way to consider these things now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted June 10, 2009 Share #46 Posted June 10, 2009 This is great news to me that Leica is still considering an R9/DMR successor with legacy consideration. I like the specs I've seen from the S2 but if they are coming out with an R10'sh ff digital body, that is perfect for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #47 Posted June 10, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...there will be a successor to the R9 that will be Autofocus with new lenses, and same Maestro processor but on which existing R-lenses will be usable with focus confirmation... Thank you Gérard. AF confirm OK but with or w/o full aperture metering? Any info about this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share #48 Posted June 10, 2009 To work with "legacy" R lenses, the R10 will need them to be ROM'd. Expect a rush of lenses going back to Solms for ROM updates, in the same way that M lenses went back for coding... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #49 Posted June 10, 2009 ...Expect a rush of lenses going back to Solms for ROM updates... Hardly interesting if there's no full aperture metering. My 5D works OK stop down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 10, 2009 Share #50 Posted June 10, 2009 You have it spot on there Paul. The S2 isn't cropped at all and losing film terminology is the only way to consider these things now. Film or digital, a smaller picture frame is always the crop of a bigger picture frame. Please answer my question, is there anybody here who is willing to pay the price for 5000 sq.ft in exchange for 3000 sq. ft just because your real estate agent keeps telling you that it is a "full house"? By your definition, every camera is a full frame camera and they should all charge the same price. These are the dirty tricks only 4/3 cohorts would play, Leica should not lower its standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted June 10, 2009 Share #51 Posted June 10, 2009 Hardly interesting if there's no full aperture metering. My 5D works OK stop down. ROM chipping can be done at many places, there's no need to send them back to Solms. But as you say, even with a ROM chip, these old R lenses still needs to be stopped down manually for proper metering so there's hardly any benefit, for focus confirmation, a electronic contact with the camera is not needed as long as Leica could use phase detection with the AF sensor. In anticipation of a huge demand in both delivering and servicing of the R10, Leica should scrap the S2 altogether instead of letting it be a distraction in the company's daily operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 10, 2009 Share #52 Posted June 10, 2009 Film or digital, a smaller picture frame is always the crop of a bigger picture frame. The crop is relative to the image circle the lenses were designed for. As I understand it the S lenses were designed for the 30mm x 45mm format, so technically there's no crop factor involved. However for those who are comparing the S with another camera system the 'crop factor' terminology can be useful to understand the FOV of the lenses with the S-format sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 10, 2009 Share #53 Posted June 10, 2009 ..is there anybody here who is willing to pay the price for 5000 sq.ft in exchange for 3000 sq. ft just because your real estate agent keeps telling you that it is a "full house"?... Haha! The Coué method has some merits but they are limited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 10, 2009 Share #54 Posted June 10, 2009 To work with "legacy" R lenses, the R10 will need them to be ROM'd. Do you have a source for this information? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted June 10, 2009 Share #55 Posted June 10, 2009 I own a company, we came up with new approaches in our field and I announced it way before it was available.I even made the first sales to a big customer this way and by just showing a mockup. Incredible, isnt'it ? Why? Because people like you don't count. You are a follower, the kind who says "it will never work" and who needs to prove constantly that he is smart, he knows it all and that the others are stupid unless they already dominate their field. People like that never buy anything really new, they simply cannot see the interest as they judge everything by its street rep, not by themselves. So when a company announces a product before it is available, it cares mainly of other people, mainly the ones who stopped posting in threads like this one a long time ago. And when it comes to the competition, it does not work that way if you really have something new. Because most of your competitors won't believe in it (the "not invented here" syndrome), others will wait and would have a hard time changing anyway because selling an innovative product is quite hard for most company (read "The Innovator's Dilemna" if you want to learn something for once). Just as usual, I guess it is easier to back-seat drive Leica from this forum like you do than to value real experience. A. You have no clue who I am and what I'm about. So stop assuming. It just makes an Ass out of U. B. If you could actually read ... guess, you focused at school more on how to insult people constantly (this is not the first time) ... you would realize that I made my decision based on what's right for me and my business and not like you on being a mindless fan-boy. C. To quote you, "(read "The Innovator's Dilemna" if you want to learn something for once)" ... let me tell you this: 'Dilemma' is spelled with two 'm', if you want to learn something for once! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted June 10, 2009 Share #56 Posted June 10, 2009 S2 is a cropped MF camera??I do not see it that way at all..it is a new format, a full frame format maximizing the viewfinder as the name implies. Medium format? that is film terminology, you have to let go at some point and look at this in a new fresh way like Leica has, it is the first professional digital camera to utilize a new format. If you view the world through film crops you don't get it. I think Leica has just raised the bar on what is possible from a small hi res. reflex camera and there will be many who get it..both intellectually and in the flesh. Frankly, I didn't start the 'cropped camera' thing. Some Leica fan-boy did. I fully agree with you here. That's why I don't look at the P40+ as a cropped MF camera either. Its sensor is what it is. If some think it's not big enough for their purposes, by all means buy something different. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted June 10, 2009 Share #57 Posted June 10, 2009 Harald, "I'll get happy when Leica starts doing." You promise? Does that mean the rants will stop? That alone should be incentive for Leica to get moving. After all, what have they ever produced? If I had a dime for every time someone says, "Why can't Leica be more like Harald Benz," I'd be a rich man. Calm down. Regards, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share #58 Posted June 10, 2009 Keep this discussion civil, please, or sanctions will be taken. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
haribo Posted June 10, 2009 Share #59 Posted June 10, 2009 Harald, "I'll get happy when Leica starts doing." You promise? Does that mean the rants will stop? That alone should be incentive for Leica to get moving. After all, what have they ever produced? If I had a dime for every time someone says, "Why can't Leica be more like Harald Benz," I'd be a rich man. Calm down. Regards, Steve Huh??? What horse did kick you in the head???!!!??? This is getting absolutely pathetic. I wasn't ranting at all. All I did is saying that the S2 is not the right camera for me and my business. I guess, that's up to me to decide, isn't it. But I guess it's obvious it's not allowed to have a different opinion in this forum. Anyhow, i never said I don't like Leica. Quite the opposite in fact but that doesn't mean i got to worship everything they come up with. Here's the thing, pal. I have several Leica products in my possession. Some of them I like and therefore will keep, while other items I'll part with sooner or later. Probably just like you do. Here's the difference between us, though. Owning some Leica products apparently did not get to my head nor did it screw up my common sense. And quite obviously, it didn't turn me into a mindless lemming. Thanks for making such a tasteless and uncalled personal attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted June 10, 2009 Share #60 Posted June 10, 2009 Film or digital, a smaller picture frame is always the crop of a bigger picture frame. Please answer my question, is there anybody here who is willing to pay the price for 5000 sq.ft in exchange for 3000 sq. ft just because your real estate agent keeps telling you that it is a "full house"? By your definition, every camera is a full frame camera and they should all charge the same price. These are the dirty tricks only 4/3 cohorts would play, Leica should not lower its standard. 1. regarding frame..if the camera is a 35mm camera and the sensor is less than 35mm than it is a cropped camera..I thought this was obvious and applies to all formats..and equally obvious.. all cameras have smaller frames than a 20x24in view camera, so? does that mean my 4x5 view camera is a cropped camera.. well if we go by your wacky definition then yes it is! 2. I can think of plenty of 3000sqft houses that are worth more than 5000sqft houses..it is not just about the size of the footprint. 3. dirty tricks.. what are you talking about? Leica has never called a cropped format camera (see #1) full frame..all Leica is doing is raising the standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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