Development fiasco... TriX + Xtol

[drums1977]

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Well, this weekend I had my first home development drama... Since I started again some weeks ago I've developed only 1600 and 400 Neopan in Xtol, with nice results in my opinion. Last week I developped my first 400 TriX, expecting to get even a better outcome. Th film was pushed at 800 ISO. I find it quite puzzling that the Xtol dev. chart gives the same developing time for all EI between 400 and 800 at 1:1 : 9 mins at 20ºC. The agitation was standard, and I followed the instructions carefully. When I checked the negatives they had a strong purple tint, and I read that TriX must be either fixed for longer than recommended (I used tetenal quick fixer for 4 mins) or washed for longer. I washed them again in running water for 30 minutes, applied wetting agent again and hang them to dry. 6 hours later the negatives were a bit cleaner, but still a bit purple. But that is not the main problem: the negatives appear to be lacking in contrast, quite grey, and the purple tint is not distributed evenly, but creating nasty looking patches. Even after PS retouching, the tones are very poor.

 

I don't really know what I did wrong, since I just followed kodak instructions, but the quality of this negs is not even close to what I have got from my photo store in the past. I wouldn't say they are unusable, but almost.

 

This is an example of what I'm talking about (this one if not even one of the worst... )

 

Well, this is it. I hope any of you could help me because I plan to shoot a lot of triX in the future...

 

Thanks so much.

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[Michael Hiles]

I know nothing about X-tol - so no unsolicited advice there.

 

But - you might try HC110. Tri-X is famously successful in this developer - has been since Calvin Coolidge. And Tri-X at 800 seems to me (my experience) 2 stops too little exposure. This film is at its best exposed for about 200 ASA, regardless of what the box says. My (unsolicited) advice - don't "push" film. These is no push - only underexposure and suboptimal negatives. The film is what it is - get that right and use it to its best advantage.

 

Your quite pleasant image is underexposed. No detail or subtlty in the shadows. I bet the negative is thin, and would be close to unprintable.

 

Whatever developer you use, you should do some tests to find the time needed to produce a full range of tones. That is likely not what the manufacture recommends - it may or may not be close, but you need to test. Othewise you will be guessing forever.

[osscat]

Use D76 - 1:1 20C - 11 mins - water bath with drop wetting agent @20 C for 1 min to soften the gelatin - pour in dev and very very gentle inversion agitation for 30 sec and then 10 sec very very gentle agitation every minute - fix well with hardening agent and wash well as the hardening agent can leave deposit but it does help prevent damage to the gelatin.

 

Vary dev time to suit you preferred contrast - this method was used to print with colour enlarger (lower/softer contrast, smooths grain structure on printing) A condenser enlarger may need softer contrast negs.

 

Osscat

[sjt1]

The only time I have seen negs that look like this is when I under-fixed them, and then you get yellowish stains on them. It may be that the natural colour of the film is purpleish, and the yellow is un-removed emulsion - Tri X I have used in the past has a purplish tinge.

 

If you have any of the film you don't mind risking, you could try putting it in fixer again (another 4 mins making a total fix time of 8 mins?) and re-washing to see if you get a more uniform colour (i.e. the yellow gets removed).

 

Hope this helps

[stunsworth]

I've developed hundreds of rolls of Tri-X and Xtol and haven't had the problems you describe. The negatives can sometimes look a bit purple, but from memory that's when they've not been washed/fixed for long enough. I certainly never had any negatives where the purple was uneven.

 

You ay you washed for 30 minutes, that should be more than enough, how did you wash? When you say you checked the negatives, at which stage did you check them?

 

One other thing, when you are scanning the negatives are you using digital ICE to attempt to clean any marks? This doesn't work with traditional films such as Tri-X and would give all sorts of odd results.

 

I admit I used Xtol at 1:3 rather than 1:1, but that shouldn't have any bearing on the purple colouration. I don't think it's an issue with the developer. Here''s an example chosen at random.

 

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[john_j]

Greetings-

 

I agree, it looks more like a fixing issue. When I process film, I take a piece of unprocessed film from the beginning or end of the roll, soak it in water for a minute or so and then throw it in some fixer while on the developing step. I then fix the film for 2 or 2 1/2 times the time it took the film to clear. All films are different, generally slower films clear faster.

 

Washing, I wash in a washer for 2 minutes, hypo clear (permawash) for 2 minutes and wash again for 7 or 8 minutes.

 

I have used HC 110 with Tri X for years in my classes, a fool proof combination and a favorite of the late Fred Picker & Ansel Adams. For my own work, I loved Rodinal for its sharpness but it became very difficult to obtain in the states so I began to use X-Tol in 2001. Sharp and smooth.

 

Best,

[drums1977]

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I've developed hundreds of rolls of Tri-X and Xtol and haven't had the problems you describe. The negatives can sometimes look a bit purple, but from memory that's when they've not been washed/fixed for long enough. I certainly never had any negatives where the purple was uneven.

 

You ay you washed for 30 minutes, that should be more than enough, how did you wash? When you say you checked the negatives, at which stage did you check them?

 

One other thing, when you are scanning the negatives are you using digital ICE to attempt to clean any marks? This doesn't work with traditional films such as Tri-X and would give all sorts of odd results.

 

I admit I used Xtol at 1:3 rather than 1:1, but that shouldn't have any bearing on the purple colouration. I don't think it's an issue with the developer. Here''s an example chosen at random.

 

[ATTACH]141834[/ATTACH]

Thanks very much you for your help.

 

My first attemp to wash the negatives was using the Ilford approach (5, 10, 20, 40 inversions). It had worked perfectly with Neopan 30 minutes before I developed the TriX... But as I said, they came out quite purple. After that I rewashed them for another 30 mins in running tap water.

 

I checked the negatives right at the end, after the wetting agent. And I did not use any ICE when scanning, just adjusted the histogram and checked the USM box at medium level.

 

I didn't try to refix them, mybe that would have reduced the. I've noticed the general underxposure of the roll, So I reccon Kodak's recommendation of giving it 9 mins at all EI between 400 and 800 is wrong. Maybe that time is OK for 400, but for 800 I should increase time in 20-30% (maybe 11 mins)? Digitaltruth suggests 10 mins.

 

As you say maybe it is best not to push, but honestly, pushed Neopan looks great with stardard times and agitations, why wouln't Tri X?

 

I suppose I have to go through a lot of testing (and posting ) before getting good results...

[tobey bilek]

Yellow stains are underfix as stated above. Mix some fresh fix, soak film 2 min, do the fix cycle and rewash and dry.

 

The advice about push is correct. It is what it is. Push does not increase shadow detail, only provides more density for highlights to make printing a bit easier. Blank dark shadows are still there.

 

Axiom. Exposure controls shadows, development controls highlights. Always was and always will be.

 

I will also tell you I never reuse fix, and good fix requires more agitation than good development. There are also other reasons

[dave_d]

Here is an interesting Xtol website for you: Kodak Xtol Developer - Unofficial Resource Page

[Guest maddoc2003jp]

Problem of not enough fixing / exhausted fixer. Only when I use really fresh made fixing solution (I use Ilford's Rapid Fixer), the purple tint will be completely gone. As soon as the fixer starts to exhaust, I always get negs with a very slight but homogeneous purple tint.

 

The Ilford washing methods works very well, IMHO. Never had a problem with it. If your film is not cut yet, you can easily spool it on the wheels again, fix for another 3 minutes with fresh fixer and wash and dry again. The purple stain should be gone, then.

 

135 Tri-X developed in XTOL 1:1 very well reaches the box speed of 400ISO and even 800ISO.Key-points are the temperature and agitation, though. For a greater latitude you could use Diafine 3 + 3 and rate Tri-X at 800ISO.

[Doc Henry]

Well, this weekend I had my first home development drama... Since I started again some weeks ago I've developed only 1600 and 400 Neopan in Xtol, with nice results in my opinion. Last week I developped my first 400 TriX, expecting to get even a better outcome. Th film was pushed at 800 ISO. I find it quite puzzling that the Xtol dev. chart gives the same developing time for all EI between 400 and 800 at 1:1 : 9 mins at 20ºC. The agitation was standard, and I followed the instructions carefully. When I checked the negatives they had a strong purple tint, and I read that TriX must be either fixed for longer than recommended (I used tetenal quick fixer for 4 mins) or washed for longer. I washed them again in running water for 30 minutes, applied wetting agent again and hang them to dry. 6 hours later the negatives were a bit cleaner, but still a bit purple. But that is not the main problem: the negatives appear to be lacking in contrast, quite grey, and the purple tint is not distributed evenly, but creating nasty looking patches. Even after PS retouching, the tones are very poor.

 

I don't really know what I did wrong, since I just followed kodak instructions, but the quality of this negs is not even close to what I have got from my photo store in the past. I wouldn't say they are unusable, but almost.

 

This is an example of what I'm talking about (this one if not even one of the worst... )

 

Well, this is it. I hope any of you could help me because I plan to shoot a lot of triX in the future...

 

Thanks so much.

Drums,

Sorry for your problems.

I think that it is a problem of fixer

For the lack of contrast of the picture it is difficult to take the picture in inside without tripod or flash according to me.

I often use films Ilford or sometimes Fuji and I develop with Ilfosol 3 (around 6 - 8 mns) and fix with Ilford rapid fixer (few mns)

I always have good results with this technique.

Good luck

Henry

[nikau]

No question in my mind it's the fix. Put it in the fixer again for a few minutes and rewash.

[batmobile]

a few things:

 

Xtol 1+1 will give you more speed than HC110 or D76 so there is no problem here. I would not recommend pushing it in HC110 at all. This has far less speed and an upswept curve which will make matters worse by far. D76 offers no advantage over Xtol for pushing and so this wont achieve anything other than a slightly different look with less speed.

 

IMO your dev time is way too short for 800. This will have lost you a bit of speed too. I would try 12 mins next time and adjust from there. Its a big leap, but I reckon you need it.

Pushing film rarely results in much additional toe speed so at 800, if you have a wide range of tones, you will not likely get deep shadows full of detail. D3200 is the better choice here at 1200-1600.

The purple dye is best removed with fresh fix and a good deal of diffusion, which you did. If it then does not come out it wont and you dont need to worry about it.

[drums1977]

Good morning to all of you! (Well, it's morning here)

 

Thanks again for your wisdom. Let me summarize a little bit, in order:

 

General advice:

- Avoid pushing if it's not necessary and expose for the shadows (rather overexpose or pull film than the contrary).

 

For this specific case:

- Develop for longer (try 11-12 mins instead of recommended 8) and agitate more softly.

- Fix for longer and use FRESH fixer to remove purple tint (maybe 8 mins instead of 4) and agitate more during fixing (btw, the fixer was quite fresh, as it was only the fourth roll I used it on).

- Ilford wash should be ok.

 

Another of your suggestions is changing developer, but for the moment I'd rather stick to Xtol. I'd like to learn about it since I can easily get it in my town and, according to many users, is a good all-around product.

 

I'll shoot another roll soon and let you know. Any other advice is much appreciated of course.

 

Thanks again from your clumsy friend !

[batmobile]

There is no need to change the developer unless there is something wrong with your particular batch. Xtol is well known for making great speed and being very reliable since the old 1L packets were discontinued. Patchy purple tones and stains are also not the fault of the developer. Thats a fix and wash issue, assuming no film fault.

 

I strongly advise you to minimise the variables and stick with the Xtol.

 

One technique to remove purple dye (anti halation agent) is to use the Ilford wash technique of multiple inversions with changes of water with periods of diffusion (left standing) I find I have to do this with some films (including TriX but particularly newer films like delta 100) to get as much dye out as possible. Fast flowing water over it does not seem as effective and wastes a lot of water. I usually take 2 hours to wash my film this way, but the negs have less residual dye and I get on with other things during the sourse of it.

[fotohuis]

Two important points on this story:

 

The clear time for Tri-X is longer then Neopan, so you fix time (2* clear time) MUST be longer.

Tri-X (400) contains more dye so it takes more time to wash it out.

 

Already said: Do not change a running system. Xtol is an universal all round developer.

 

If you want to test your fix on Silver (Ag+) ions.

10% PotassiumIodide solution: 10ml fix under test + 5 drops KI when it stays milkey you are over the limit of 2g/ltr.

[drums1977]

Well, yesterday I rushed out to shoot a roll of TriX 400 (I pushed it again at 800 in order to learn) and I developed it today using your suggestions (mainly 11:45 mins dev, 8 mins fix in fresh soup and longer wash). The negatives look better, although still a bit purple and still a bit thin if compared to pushed 400 Neopan. I'll scan them to see what they look like.

 

J.

 

Stunsworth, I forget everytime, I like the picture of the streets musicians, very natural. Those are the tones I'm after.

[andybarton]

How old us your bottle of fixer?

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[drums1977]

How old us your bottle of fixer?

 

Well, I bought it a month ago, although I haven't checked the expiration date. Anyway, it has worked ok with other 5 or 6 rolls in the last days.

[the.ant]

I don't think it's an Xtol problem, I really like the results of tri-x xtol very much, even when pushed to 3200, although I like the results of xtol 1:2 better than 1:1. It's more economic as well, just takes more time.

 

Still, I always get a purple tint with Tri-X, sometimes less, sometimes more, but it happened with every developer (I usually use Xtol or Tmax 1:4, but it happened with a49 and studional as well, iirc) and every fixer (usually either tetenal rapid fixer or agfa agefix for me) so far.

 

In my eyes it doesn't affect the quality of the print, and it bleaches out if you leave the film lying around somewhere undisturbed for a couple of days (cut, in their archive sheets). No need to wash it again! Also imho no need to excessively extend development times, but I haven't tested that.

 

I always use the Ilford method to wash, running water might be better but I don't have facilities to guarantee a stable temperature and I rather have purple colour than increased grain due to temperature drops.

 

The dull pictures and yellowish tint look like underfixation to me, as other commentators suggested as well. Just do a normal fixation cycle again and you should be fine.

 

I had similar problems once or twice and fixation did help. A bit annoying if you've already cut the film, and just another reason why I prefer Kinderman reels to Jobo, since you don't have to take the film out of the reel to let it dry.

 

Keep in mind that Tri-X weas fixer out quicker than other films and once the fixer is worn out, increasing fixation time doesn't help! Whenever I'm not sure whether the fixer was still strong enough, I always check the film for any yellow tint before washing to decide wether I should fix again with fresh fixer before going through with the rest of processing.

 

When I started to get develop myself end of last year I got myself a couple of different developers to experiment a bit, but since I found Xtol I hardly touch the others anymore.