sean_reid Posted November 5, 2006 Share #21 Posted November 5, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Wow Sean that was a quick reply Thanks for all the hard work and the help and feedback you have given to Leica. U're as much a part of the developmemt of the M8 as the folks at Solms! I just checked out part 2 of ur review. Hmm, I can't see any banding in the picture you mentioned - maybe because it's been converted to black and white... also I'm pleasantly surprised you added a section on moire. Perhaps you can consider putting a notice on the front page of the site with a list of updated articles by date so that readers like me who read it earlier will not miss the new additions to the article itself? Check out this example in the other thread which could be of use in helping Leica find the problem: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8672-banding-some-more-tests.html#post84569 This looks like an ordinary picture for me in an orginally hall. Notice the streaking from the left side of the image. Actually, it's so obvious anyone would have spotted it without being prompted to look..... I hope these are all possible to fix with just firmware. Hi David, Thanks, but I really have not played a significant role at all in the development of the M8. You can see the streaks at the same "lattitude" as the light bulb near the right edge of the frame. They certainly don't jump out at one. Good idea about the article update list. Within the articles themselves, the updates have dates listed where they begin. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 5, 2006 Posted November 5, 2006 Hi sean_reid, Take a look here M8 streaking at Hi Iso. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
clayh Posted November 5, 2006 Share #22 Posted November 5, 2006 Still in the 'playing in the sandbox' mode. It is evening now, and I snapped a few interior shots with light sources in the frame. All of these are ISO 2500 and -2 EV - so they represent something of a limits test in many ways. Surprisingly, the closeup showed no banding, and the intermediate distance shot showed the banding. Could the phenomenon be influenced by the size of the light source in relation to the full sensor? Technical particulars M8, Noctilux at f/1, ISO 2500, Capture One Pro with generic M8 profile, Color temperature 3000K (These mica lights in our house are a real bear to get right in color), default noise reduction etc. Photoshopped tiff file, save for web as jpeg quality extra high. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/8498-m8-streaking-at-hi-iso/?do=findComment&comment=84456'>More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted November 5, 2006 Share #23 Posted November 5, 2006 ......Still in the 'playing in the sandbox' mode. It is evening now, and I snapped a few interior shots with light sources in the frame. All of these are ISO 2500 and -2 EV - so they represent something of a limits test in many ways.......... Clay The only way I've seen so far to induce the banding behavior is with completely blown highlights. Your mica light fixtures aren't blown at all Try some bare hi-wattage bulbs. Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayh Posted November 5, 2006 Share #24 Posted November 5, 2006 I agree with you about the highlights. They need to be clipped completely (and probably significantly) to cause the banding to appear. This is annoying, but by no means is any sort of show-stopping problem. I can see when it is occuring on a zoomed-in review on the lcd, so as long as I am aware of the situations where it may appear, i can look for it and compensate by reframing or underexposing even more. Now that I have a whole 8 hours of experience with this camera, I feel like I can offer a tentative assessement: it rocks! Yes, there are going to be some problems, but I think they can be addressed through firmware updates and some judicious shooting behavior. I certainly would not want anyone to get the idea from my posts that I am disappointed in any way. In fact, I am very impressed. As far as handling goes, this is one sweet camera. I know that it has come under some criticism for the inability to set the ISO without a menu. But the way that Leica has arranged the menu structure makes it very easy and quick to change ISO on the fly. I owned an RD-1 for a year, and I have to admit that I did like that ISO dial. But in practice, I think I can reset the ISO almost as fast on the M8 as I could on the RD-1. One of the more amazing things I have seen so far is the quality of the black and white files produced at ISO 2500 using the JFI profiles. Anyone looking at my website can see that I shoot a lot of TMax 3200 with a Noct. And I think that this camera is going to give TMZ some competition. The only issue will be how it handles very bright lights in the frame. Again, a peek at my website will show you that I have an affinity for clumping bright lights in my photos, so for me, the banding will be an issue for some shots. I am not going to go out at night without my M3 loaded with TMZ for a while. But equally certain, I will not leave the M8 at home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpo Posted November 5, 2006 Share #25 Posted November 5, 2006 I have evidenced the problem in my M8 Full test review published on http://www.Leicapassion.com on the b&w section or downloadable also from http://rpo.eranet.tv The problem is generated from the microlenses layer applied over the sensor and he is not dismissable. Unfortunately. Bye Roberto Piero Ottavi - Venice - Italy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share #26 Posted November 5, 2006 Sean, Ths matters to me and the others who posted about it. The Leica is an available light camera and we pay for WONDERFUL FAST and FLARE-FREE lenses, which Leica supplies. We expect the body to be FAST and FLARE-FREE as well. I have sent email to Leica already. I think we will see a fix, quickly, because this impacts their core audience, the available light crowd for whom they make those fast lenses. Edmund Hi Reddawn, Actually, I mentioned light banding at ISO 2500 in my review (Part Two) but it was a rare occurence. It can be seen in the ISO 2500 example picture of the kid flipping burgers.The reason I almost never saw it is that I generally do not place lighting sources themselves within the frame. In this picture, there was a bare bulb (with a wire surround) that appeared in the frame. I want to speak with Leica on Monday to get certain information and then I'll write about this. In all the examples I've seen posted here on the forum so far, the light streaks correspond with a light source in the frame which is many times brighter than the rest of the subject. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jflachmann Posted November 5, 2006 Share #27 Posted November 5, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have also sent an email to Leica. Hopefully I will receive an answer tomorrow and they are telling, that there is a bugfix on the way already. Otherwise ... hard times again for Leica? Jens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 5, 2006 Share #28 Posted November 5, 2006 The banding/streaking thing looks like a real and potentially annoying problem. If it's related to the microlenses or other hardware aspects of the sensor it's unlikely to be resolved with any quick fix from Leica. I tried earlier to reproduce the banding problem with some quick snaps of a light in my office but couldn't (which is good news - though it may be that my light source isn't quite blown out enough?). I did, however, find another problem and that is that the bright light source appears to be mirrored elsewhere in the image. I think I've seen this reported before (might be a different camera) and I think it happens because the sensor reflects back some of the light onto the rear of the lens? Whatever the cause it has the potential to be a problem (incidentally, the problem is worse the more the lens is stopped down). You can see the ghost image clearly in two of the following crops. All shots are with a 35mm Summilux ASPH (but I can also replicate the problem with the 50 'lux ASPH). The lens is unfiltered. First shot is at F8 and ISO 2500. Second shot is at F2 and ISO 160 (can't see the ghost image) Third shot is also at F2 and ISO 160 but underexposed (compared to the others) by 1 stop. The ghost image can be seen (see arrow). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewrossphotographs Posted November 5, 2006 Share #29 Posted November 5, 2006 ...I did, however, find another problem and that is that the bright light source appears to be mirrored elsewhere in the image. I think I've seen this reported before (might be a different camera)..... I think this was reported by Michael Reichman in his initial M8 report on Luminous Landscapes, but since then it has been spiked!!! Regarding your test pictures: I've certainly seen this type of problem with other manufacturers sensors in varying degrees, only from time to time, so this is not unique to Leica or sensor in the M8 I feel. -A Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnll Posted November 5, 2006 Share #30 Posted November 5, 2006 Strange that the ghost should be dark rather than light. If it were a reflection off the sensor / rear lens element, wouldn't it be light? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rona!d Posted November 5, 2006 Share #31 Posted November 5, 2006 Here another kind of ghost: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/landschaft-reise/7319-m8-meets-sonnenuntergang-auf-dem-dachstein.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 5, 2006 Share #32 Posted November 5, 2006 Strange that the ghost should be dark rather than light. If it were a reflection off the sensor / rear lens element, wouldn't it be light? I don't know. The green colour suggests that it's the reflection off a coating of some sort. The way that the ghost is mirrored suggests that the bright highlight is reflecting off the sensor glass surface and back on to the rear element of the lens. In most cases I'm sure the ghost highlight will either not be noticeable or can be removed with the spotting tool but there are bound to be one or two instances where it will be a considerable nuisance. I agree that this is not a problem unique to the M8 but I must admit to never having seen it within countless shots I've taken (including indoor architectural shots with bright lights within the image) with various Canon DSLRs that I have owned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenny Posted November 5, 2006 Share #33 Posted November 5, 2006 Fact seems to be, that the automatic WB don't works well. Oohooh; they have to start the new generation whith a firmware-update. I'am waiting. Best regards from Cologne. Markus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atufte Posted November 5, 2006 Share #34 Posted November 5, 2006 Hi Ian I had the exact same ghost problem with my R-D1 an both my Cron 35/2 and the Cron 50/2, i almost ripped my entire remains of hair out in frustration, but all of a sudden it hit me, try the same shots without the filters, and swop problem solved... :-) I found out that some kind of reflex from the back of the filter flairs back into the sensor at this kind of dark shots with bulbs, strong lights involed... This is probably caused by the closeness of the sensor and that's probably why this is no problem with dslr's... I hope this will solve your problem... :-) And this might also be the problem with the flare/banding we have seen alot of examples on the last 48 hours, did the you people use filters aswell...?, if so try the same without filters... (because from what i've seen (At first i flipped off the filters in scenes like this, but after a while i did'nt bother to put them on again...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 5, 2006 Share #35 Posted November 5, 2006 One of the more amazing things I have seen so far is the quality of the black and white files produced at ISO 2500 using the JFI profiles. I love the look of that combination myself. Of course, as you know, I do all my B&W work now using the JFI profiles in C1. I like it better than scanned TMZ negs, even when the TMZ is rated and developed for ISO 1600. The Leica is a stop faster still because it's delivering an actual 3200. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 5, 2006 Share #36 Posted November 5, 2006 Hi Ian I had the exact same ghost problem with my R-D1 an both my Cron 35/2 and the Cron 50/2, i almost ripped my entire remains of hair out in frustration, but all of a sudden it hit me, try the same shots without the filters, and swop problem solved... :-) Good idea but no filter was used (I did note this above). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted November 5, 2006 Share #37 Posted November 5, 2006 Sean, Ths matters to me and the others who posted about it. Edmund Yes, I realize that it's important to many people. I'll write about this next week. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted November 5, 2006 Author Share #38 Posted November 5, 2006 Some digital cameras have had problems with reflections from the sensor back into the lens, and then back to the sensor. I think some lenses of the last generation have been modified to avoid this phenomenon. This might account for the ghosting, but not for the streaks. Those are a sensor problem. Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrgeoffrion Posted November 5, 2006 Share #39 Posted November 5, 2006 First, a big thanks to Pascal for identifying the streaking issue when light sources are present. I was one of the first to receive my two Canon 1Ds Mark II the first week they came out and it was a nightmare for 5 months trying to debug the fact that it would [what seemed like] randomly lose images and never write them to the CF Card. Based on the M8 samples I've reviewed, this issue will present itself daily when shooting weddings. As I don't feel becoming a debugger for the next few weeks/months, I've just canceled my M8 order until this is issue is resolved to my satisfaction, or the Zeiss digital comes out, or Leica sends me a test camera. On a side note, I'm very surprised that it has taken this long to identify this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted November 5, 2006 Share #40 Posted November 5, 2006 I've just canceled my M8 order until this is issue is resolved to my satisfaction, or the Zeiss digital comes out, or Leica sends me a test camera. Unless your M8 delivery was imminent it might have been an idea to at least wait until Leica comment on this 'issue'? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.