like_no_other Posted July 6, 2009 Share #501 Posted July 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) [quote=rosuna;957400 Does Phase One see Leica as a strong competitor? Sure, they are in pure panic, Hassleblad as well. Have a look at how they gamble away their profits with dumping offers to fight each other to gain as much market share from each other before Leica enters the market. They risk their profits to win as much customers as possible before the new innovative Leica S2 replaces their products. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 6, 2009 Posted July 6, 2009 Hi like_no_other, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ynp Posted July 6, 2009 Share #502 Posted July 6, 2009 Interesting you mention that when i am actually quite interested in buying a S2 , the issue is there is no reality being spoken here from some. Folks need to know what is truly going on in the market than closing there eyes and opening there wallet and not knowing what they are getting into. Also there is a old saying people have more money than sense. I have more sense than money and mouths to feed. I will go with reality any day than wishing on a dream. Here is the reality From BJP Title: Franke & Heidecke: Sinar reacts to news of closure Feature: Daily News Date: 6 July 2009 Sinar, one of the medium format camera makers directly affected by the closure of Franke & Heidecke, is still studying plans regarding its Hy6 camera, BJP has learnt On 04 July, BJP revelead that Franke & Heidecke, the German manufacturer responsible for 6x6 format camera bodies for both Leaf and Sinar, had told its employees it was to close. Speaking to BJP, a Sinar spokeswoman reacted to the news: 'Unfortunatly the final decision about the Sinar Hy6 camera is still pending,' she says. 'Sinar is still confident this product will continue. A final decision is expected around end of July.' Sinar refused to comment further. Leaf, whose AFi system is based on the same camera body as the Hy6, has yet to return calls and emails for comment. For more updates, check bjp-online.com/news. Also after that report e-mails were sent out Sinar Germany fired there employees. Opening a web shop , Obviously more details to follow Guy, I was not attacking you or anybody in particular. Who am I to do that? I do not even know how much the s2, I put a deposit on, will cost... As a Sinar user I am worried s bit. But not too much. We, who live in here in the wild, are used to survive without dealer's and manufacturer's support, we are paying 30 percent more for the same gear, we cannot legally send our cameras for upgrade through thre Customs and we learn our cameras on fora. If Sinar is no longer with us, so what? I still have the system and lenses and they work. There are a lot of wealth outside of the panicking and price sensitive American market and there are some people who chase the quality of lenses. Not everybody is a professional photographer, a lot of people just want to have the best, and a compact system with focal plane and leaf shutters is very interesting for amateurs. Pros will follow, when early adopters realise that they bought a camera without face recognition and put their Leicas for sale. Yevgeny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #503 Posted July 6, 2009 Let's talk reality on this one. Wow It's more about a dwindling market than anything else . Too many shooters moving back to DSLR's is more the issue but leica does pose competition. But the real reality is Leica will price this right out of the Pro's hands. And there goes any chance of me beta testing S2 with that comment . So with that see ya later. I wasn't joking either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted July 6, 2009 Share #504 Posted July 6, 2009 Yevgeny, may I ask you to forward my wish for an anthracite M9 (if FF only)? Carsten, I will. Just one correction: they do not call the camera M9, they are saying "a new M model we expect in Autumn". Yevgeny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 6, 2009 Share #505 Posted July 6, 2009 But the real reality is Leica will price this right out of the Pro's hands I thought the price hadn't been announced. What's it going to be? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #506 Posted July 6, 2009 Guy, I was not attacking you or anybody in particular. Who am I to do that? I do not even know how much the s2, I put a deposit on, will cost... As a Sinar user I am worried s bit. But not too much. We, who live in here in the wild, are used to survive without dealer's and manufacturer's support, we are paying 30 percent more for the same gear, we cannot legally send our cameras for upgrade through thre Customs and we learn our cameras on fora. If Sinar is no longer with us, so what? I still have the system and lenses and they work. There are a lot of wealth outside of the panicking and price sensitive American market and there are some people who chase the quality of lenses. Not everybody is a professional photographer, a lot of people just want to have the best, and a compact system with focal plane and leaf shutters is very interesting for amateurs. Pros will follow, when early adopters realise that they bought a camera without face recognition and put their Leicas for sale. Yevgeny I know Pros are in reality the very limited market for the S2 , not many of us will switch or buy one at least until it is up and running and everything is 100 percent. I know we are completely the minority here and folks with wealth won't care one way or the other but they should know the market and how weird it has become. I really feel for the Sinar user and it may not seem it but I would not want to be a a sitting duck either. So my heart goes out to them because they just don't know what may come next or not and that is a uneasy feeling. Your also right I can only give my perspective as a Pro shooter that has to deal with service and support stuff on a more regular basis . No question the S2 will be great and i have never said otherwise. I just like to give folks a very round system approach of it that I know and of other MF that I know, it is not always positive. Decision is up to them entirely and honestly I get these questions all day long in e-mails and PM's on what folks should do or not do when it comes to buying. Truly i will not lie and i will not pull punches either way and what ever system i have in my hands i am very critical of and believe me I have been with Mamiya/ Phase as well as Leica when I had that. I need a new body and been begging for one and it is no secret public or private that the Mamiya body needs a update. Yes i am extremely critical of any system out there , because if I buy it it has to work effectively day in and day out. So bottom line I am a bitch to please, I think that perspective though is helpful to folks even if it sounds negative it not always is. I'm just hard on this stuff and I hate marketing BS from any side, so sorry folks if it sounds bad but I just don't want folks spending 390k and coming back and saying why did no one tell me this later on. Honestly I have no dog in this fight on the S2 i would not mind having one if it can work for me and cost me less than what I hope it to come out at. Anyway hope i have not offended anyone but sometimes I have to use a hammer to get the points across to make sense in the end for folks. I get very irritated by marketing and only hearing on what they want us to hear, there is always a flip side to everything and if I can bring that some balance. Than i hope it helps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #507 Posted July 6, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I thought the price hadn't been announced. What's it going to be? The alluded price has always been 15-20 k euros. Look back at all the comments from leica posted here. Recently we just heard 20k did we not from Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #508 Posted July 6, 2009 From Andreas posting Hi, here's finally the official translation of the summary of the Q&A session with Stefan Daniel during the Hessenpark member meeting. I transcibed it from the video I made that evening and translated it with my limited English skills (What the heck is "verkitten" or "Kittglieder" in English?) Strategy In General Panasonic Cooperation The Panasonic cooperation will continue More compact cameras to come Leica and Micro FourThirds Leica is not going to offer MFT cameras Leica may offer MFT lenses MFT is and interesting system Sensor size is a very limiting factor Leica And The Forum Leica is not going to run an own forum on their website Collaboration is seen as running well and constructive Positive example is the first L-Camera TV show from the Leica production Many Leica employees are reading in this forum regularly, so that important contributions in the forum are reported immeditiately to the management The forum provides many contributions to the product development Stefan Daniel agrees to answer forum questions more often in the future Leica As Lens Supplier for Other Camera Systems Patents needed are only swapped inside of the Japanes camera industry Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina who are seen as Japanese company That way Zeiss receives the patents, Leica as German company does not Leica's attempts to come to an agreement failed until now Reverse engineering is legally too risky Extending The Product Range No Leica scanners are planned The LCD projector range is continued but won't have interchangeable lenses Maybe the customer service will offer to implement different lenses R-System R10 and Alternatives There will be no digital SLR aka R10 But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2 Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors This would have been a solution for the existing customer base but not for new customers Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out There is no due date for the new solution Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format Definitely it's not going to be a SLR DMR The reasons for stopping the DMR were Cooperation with Imacon now Hasselblad ended very abruptly Sales figures were low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2) The DMR firmware will have no updates. M-System M9 A LEICA M9 will come Developing full format is technically very demanding because of the M lenses We are one step further but still not there where we can announce the camera M8 Upgrades No more upgrades are planned Dealers don't like upgrades as no additional sales are generated The M8 upgrade constrained Leica M8.2 sales Used cameras are entry level cameras thus attracting new customers to Leica This would drop by future upgrade offers Sensor Supplier Kodak is prepared to Leica's needs, for example the special size of the S2 sensor Other manufacturers like Sony only offer a fixed range of sensors Summarits / Entry Level Lenses Summarits are true Leica lenses The LEICA ELMAR-M f/3,8 24 mm was already an extension of this line More affordable Leica lenses are to come - perhaps not named Summarit (reserved for 2.5 lenses) Summilux 50mm sales are 100% above of Summarit sales Super Wide Lenses Asked for super wide lenses: Leica already has an 16mm - Leica can only offer shorter lenses This is a topic we could work on... 18mm Finder Availability 18mm finder to come in June The frame precision wasn't sufficient yet therefore a rework was necessary NOCTILUX Availability NOCTILUX wa announced for February Production turned out to be more complex than assumed NOCTILUX consists of 8 elements in 5 groups These groups are first cemented (?), then coated This process had problems which are solved now End of June, beginning of July larger quantities will reach the market S-System Pilot lot is in production by now Everything is on schedule Price will be on the same level as the top cameras in the digital professional segment - like high end solutions by Hasselblad and Phase One Body will be below 20,000 Euros Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile) Total market are about 10,000 cameras per year Leica is going for a at least two digit market share Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #509 Posted July 6, 2009 Does that mean 19,995 Euros. :) Joking of course Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 6, 2009 Share #510 Posted July 6, 2009 Well, under 20,000 Euros could mean anything, though I doubt that it'll come in at less than 1,000. Perhaps we ought to wait for the official announcement before deciding that it's "real reality". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 6, 2009 Share #511 Posted July 6, 2009 Phase One and Leica seem to have broken their agreement on distribution. Sorry, only in Spanish for the moment: Leica asegura que la ruptura con Phase One no afectará al desarrollo de la S2 Go back a few pages in this thread Ruben and you will see posts discussing this. There is also another thread concerning this news elsewhere on the forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 6, 2009 Share #512 Posted July 6, 2009 Not long to wait for further information on the S2 programme, including pricing, which is expected at the end of the month (July) according to a quote attributed to Leica's Christian Erhardt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #513 Posted July 6, 2009 Well, under 20,000 Euros could mean anything, though I doubt that it'll come in at less than 1,000. Perhaps we ought to wait for the official announcement before deciding that it's "real reality". Well I never said anything in regards to pricing as real reality and never will, but comments like pricing it against the high end Hassy and Phase systems as stated certainly gives us a clue. Frankly If it is under 13k Euros than you can just sign me up right now but I know my check book won't be getting any play on that number. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 6, 2009 Share #514 Posted July 6, 2009 Well I never said anything in regards to pricing as real reality and never will... In the message that lead to me asking what the S2 price was going to be you wrote... "But the real reality is Leica will price this right out of the Pro's hands" Which I interpreted as meaning that it Leica wil price the S2 at a level that pros won't be able to afford. I apologise if I've misunderstood what you meant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 6, 2009 Share #515 Posted July 6, 2009 Granted i may have said that the wrong way. My bad. In regards to price though things have dramatically been reduced since the time the S2 was announced and those old numbers are long gone. Hopefully Leica will adjust to the market as needed which I assume they will. The tricky part is where the S2 actually fits in and obviously there are many views on this and how you look at it, which in turn adjusts the pricing as well. For example some may see it as a cut above a D3x which in turn does not give it a much higher price than a D3x. Than some may see it as pretty equal to a P30+/H3/31 which in this case they run around 15k new with body and lens. Than there is the P40+ which currently list price is at 19k for back only and 21k with back,body and lens. Give or take on some of the numbering here. Than the P45+/H3/39 back body and lens is around I think 21 and 19k . Than obviously the P65+ and the Hassy 50 which run in the high 20's or more I believe ( That was US dollars). Okay given all that where does the S2 fit in all 4 of those price ranges and what the market will bear and what your willing to pay for it. Now we can sit here and argue all 4 price ranges until the cows come home. but it is not up to us but what where leica believes it fits in. We all have our arguments here on what it should be but being a German company with a high labor force and we all know of leica than obviously we will assume higher than what we may think normal. At least that would be my assumption and hear the latest words of less than 20k euros again the assumption is not far from it either. Why say 20 when it could be closer to 15 if you know what I mean. Just for clarity sake just checked the conversion 20,000.00 EUR = 27,960.97 USD Euro United States Dollars 1 EUR = 1.39805 USD 1 USD = 0.715283 EUR than at 15000 euro Live rates at 2009.07.06 21:00:54 UTC 15,000.00 EUR = 20,973.87 USD Euro United States Dollars 1 EUR = 1.39826 USD 1 USD = 0.715176 EUR So is it safe to say between 15-20k Euro or 20k-27k US Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephengilbert Posted July 6, 2009 Share #516 Posted July 6, 2009 "15-20k Euro or 20k-27k US." For a body. I guess you can start out using a pinhole, and get a lens later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarnman Posted July 6, 2009 Share #517 Posted July 6, 2009 The DSLR market is so large and the products so varied at different price points I dont believe either Canon or Nikon would react to a Leica R10 the way that Phaseone and Hassleblad will react to a Leica S2. Jeff It would be interesting if Phase One and Hasselblad does react like you suggest. It might even tear down the megapixels competition down for a little while and maybe the new "S" format could find different ways to achieve better image quality performance than simply with higher and higher resolutions. The only disadvantage I see would have to be the introduction of all new lenses OR (again) the conversion of "equivalent" focal lengths of current lenses. This is a fast moving topic and I have read all the posts. One point of view that sticks out of my mind is how much these formats reminds me of Sony's introduction of the Elcaset. Elcaset - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The Elcaset was introduced by Sony in 1976. It was a audio cassette format that was somewhat bigger than a standard cassette and smaller than the big Reel to Reel tapes (and equipment) that went with it. (Sound familiar?) Of course the Elcaset's performance matched the quality of the Reel to Reel format AND at the same time, it had all the conveniences of the standard cassette. I thought the idea behind this format was fantastic. However, sometimes better formats don't always prove to be winners. The Elcaset was a total failure in the market place. The reason? The "standard" cassettes started using better formulated audio tape, the cassettes design themselves ended up with better tolerances (better construction) and audiophiles started turning towards the newer high end audio cassette recorders that provided a frequency response equal to Reel to Reel formats at a cost that was less than Reel to Reel equipment. And the standard cassette quality was adequate for most people. I'm not saying this is what's going to happen to the "S" format. Just that it simply reminds me of the introduction of the Elcaset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 6, 2009 Share #518 Posted July 6, 2009 The world has never been in shortage of millionaires and billionaires, even in this gloomy economy there are people making tons of money everyday. So honestly I have never considered that price would be a hurdle in selling the S2. Many photographers, amateurs or professionals came here and express our concern about Leica products, because we know what we want, we know what we are talking about and how we are gonna use it. If Leica only cares about selling luxury items to Russian moguls or dumbass newly riches from China or India then we all need not to bother. These people probably will never care whether the shutter on a S2 would fire, or the aperture ring on a Noctilux will work. Same people probably will never use customer service so life in Solms/Wetzlar could be absolutely easy. Did I hear somebody mention these people are interested in leaf shutter??? Give me a break, these are the funniest and clueless posts on the forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 6, 2009 Share #519 Posted July 6, 2009 This is a troubled time for MF camera makers and many pros alike. I was a longtime Rollei 6006 user but I sold all of my gear 5 years ago (except one body, 80mm lens and some backs - which still have to go.) But I really liked the Rollei system and followed what F&H was doing. I started studying the system from when they first demoed a very early concept model at the Photo Expo in NYC several years ago. It looked ingenious, but there were things to consider - lack of wide angle lens capability meant that I'd have to use a wide angle technical camera for wide angle work. Only the new Rollei PS and AF lens will work on it. The old prism won't work either. But it took so long before the final camera platform got released that Hasselblad shot right by them. And then Mamiya is undercutting them. Every day that goes by makes it that much harder for the Leica S2. Every person who is planning to invest in an MF system has to take in consideration what will happen if the camera company goes out of business. Unless you can live with what you have or just dump it and change to something else. In the case of Rollei, you can still find used 6008 or 6008 AF bodies and perhaps get your AFi back adapted to work on them. At worst you could use your back on a view or wide angle technical camera and even use the Rollei lenses via an adapter. Or if it can't be adapted, sell the back and buy one that works on the old 6006 or 6008 system. And also use your Rollei lenses. The same is true if Hassy or Mamiya or Phase go out of business - plenty of used bodies, lenses, and backs to make things work. And somebody is surely going to make digital backs in the future for Hasselblad, Mamiya, and maybe for Rollei too. (You can still buy new backs for the Contax.) However, if Leica stops selling or supporting the S2 in a couple of years, what can you do? (What if Leica went out of business?) Keep using it and hopefully get it fixed if it breaks. But there will be no chance of getting a new back or body for it. You won't be able to get new lenses for it. And if Leica doesn't make all the lenses they promise to make you might have a fairly limited system. At minimum, waiting until a wide range of S2 lenses is plentiful would be a prudent thing to do if you look at this as a long term investment in a system. However, there might come a time where those lenses are orphaned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted July 6, 2009 Share #520 Posted July 6, 2009 I...and audiophiles started turning towards the newer high end audio cassette recorders that provided a frequency response equal to Reel to Reel formats at a cost that was less than Reel to Reel equipment. I don't think audiophile ever really took up cassette recorders. Even something like a Nakamichi couldn't compete with a Revox B77 or even an older G36 reel to reel recorder. To try and claim that a cassette recorder equalled a reel to reel recorder on the basis of frequency response alone is disingenuous IMHO. It's rather like comparing a point and shoot camera to an M8 on the basis of pixel count, there's far more to an image than the number of pixels, and there's far more to a recording that the frequency response. Cassettes were popular for the same reason that MP3s are popular now, convenience - and the fact that copying a friend's LP onto cassette cost less than buying the LP, where as copying the same album on reel to reel cost more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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