sdai Posted July 1, 2009 Share #401 Posted July 1, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) You guys are worrying too much. Being the most isolated country on earth, North Korea can detonate a nuke bomb and make headlines on all newspapers in the world, what's the big deal with a camera? zzzzzzzzzzz....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 1, 2009 Posted July 1, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted July 1, 2009 Share #402 Posted July 1, 2009 There are more worrying things in life than North Korea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted July 1, 2009 Share #403 Posted July 1, 2009 There are more worrying things in life than North Korea That's absolutely true ... but a camera is optional in life. How are you doing lately, Andy? I hope all is going very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted July 1, 2009 Share #404 Posted July 1, 2009 Still moderating... You'll realise when I'm not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 1, 2009 Share #405 Posted July 1, 2009 In the end, Leica might find it easier just to be a customer of Phase One rather than a strategic partner. Wilson It may be that this is what the Phase announcement was hinting at, given that the partnership as originally envisioned was much wider than software alone. For instance they could still incorporate support for the S2's files in C1, and Leica might still choose to offer a bundled software package, but the arrangement would be on a strictly commercial basis without the complication of a full strategic partnership. Unless of course they are bent on total domination of the market above 35FF and have a cunning plan to eliminate all potential competition wherever it may be..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted July 2, 2009 Share #406 Posted July 2, 2009 C1 allows one to shoot tethered and superimpose that image over another - typically to fit a layout. I have found this to be very useful. But tethering is only supported with some cameras. If the S2 files are supported by C1 but not the tethering, one could still shoot tethered with whatever software Leica provides, and view the images in C1 via a linked "hotfolder." A hotfolder is one that is automatically refreshed when a new image appears in it. This may or may not work smoothly depending on how well the two programs get along. This way you could use the C1 overlay function with the S2 and also preview the raw files with the correct color balance and any other adjustments you like. (At one point the 5DII was supported in C1 but not tethering - I used the Canon tethered software program and C1 would only refresh the hotfolder directory after I shot several photos. And if the USB cable came unplugged, or if the camera shut down, I had to close C1, re-establish tethering with the Canon software and then restart C1. So this was a real pain until C1 supported tethered shooting for the 5DII.) If the S2 files and tethering both are not supported by C1 - you could still do what I described above as long as the S2 can output jpegs along with the raws. Of course this will limit your ability to adjust the image in C1 and study all of the dynamic range that a raw file can provide. But you could use the overlay feature and organize your images as you shoot. On the other hand, would this be enough reason to buy C1 if it doesn't support your camera? For raw conversions alone... if Leica can get DXO to support its files, that would be a great way to go for bundled software. I posted an example of the overlay feature below. I shot loose because the creative director (on site) wanted more room on the right to have an option for a horizontal layout. It was nice to be able to zoom in to 100% and make sure the detail was adequate considering how much the face will have to be magnified. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/82842-s2-under-pricing-pressure/?do=findComment&comment=950325'>More sharing options...
wattsy Posted July 2, 2009 Share #407 Posted July 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) It may be that this is what the Phase announcement was hinting at, given that the partnership as originally envisioned was much wider than software alone. You would think so but the quote from the Phase bloke - "however, we still have an agreement for Leica's smaller cameras where Capture One can be used" - appears to suggest that C1 isn't going to be supporting the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 2, 2009 Share #408 Posted July 2, 2009 Unless of course they are bent on total domination of the market above 35FF and have a cunning plan to eliminate all potential competition wherever it may be..... I think that is their plan, just to fight it out with Hasslelbad. They dont want Leica or anyone else in there as well. Will this put back Leica's S2 release date or have they already found another way? Lets really hope so because there is a tremendous amount at stake here for Leica. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 2, 2009 Share #409 Posted July 2, 2009 You would think so but the quote from the Phase bloke - "however, we still have an agreement for Leica's smaller cameras where Capture One can be used" - appears to suggest that C1 isn't going to be supporting the S2. Yes, it does Ian. That's the most troublesome sentence. I think that is their plan, just to fight it out with Hasslelbad. They dont want Leica or anyone else in there as well. Will this put back Leica's S2 release date or have they already found another way? Lets really hope so because there is a tremendous amount at stake here for Leica. Jeff I hope so too Jeff, and there are other possibilities out there, for example Alan has suggested DXO. As for the release date etc, this was posted elsewhere: http://www.imaginginsider.com/?p=97535 Christian Erhardt is reported as saying that he expects pricing to be communicated by the end of the month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 2, 2009 Share #410 Posted July 2, 2009 Of course if they would have just made their FF R10 and spent their money developing a FF M9 all of this wouldn't be happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted July 2, 2009 Share #411 Posted July 2, 2009 Well unfortunately they didn't and it is Gary, so time to move on and hope for the best for the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 2, 2009 Share #412 Posted July 2, 2009 I would hope that Leica would make a DNG-converter, perhaps something similar to Sinar's eXposure, which doesn't try to match the feature sets of larger packages, but just gives very good tools for setting white balance, controlling noise and sharpness, and basic tools for setting the correct exposure, and then has the ability to export to 16-bit TIFF or a flat DNG, for further processing in other packages. That is how I currently work with my Sinarback eMotion 54LV, and it works well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted July 2, 2009 Share #413 Posted July 2, 2009 I never was too impressed with C1, it never worked absolutely stable (especially with big folders) but the conversion-quality is pristine! The S2 claims to have a powerful internal JPG-processing, couldn't those algorithms converted to a tool which works as a Photoshop plug-in? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 2, 2009 Share #414 Posted July 2, 2009 If Leica wants to develop their own raw converter, they could indeed take the algorithms used for internal JPEG processing as a starting point. After all, raw conversion and internal image processing are basically the same thing; it is just that the former has a user interface and lots of parameteters to fiddle with. Also there is always dcraw to fall back on. Now if Leica wanted to get fancy and follow the recent trend towards workflow software encompassing much more than just raw conversion, this would take a little more time. The biggest issue is something else, though. When you want to do without an antialiasing filter in front of the sensor, you need an effective moiré filter in your raw conversion software (and also in your internal image processing). This is something Capture One excels in, which made it the preferred raw converter for medium-format backs without antialiasing filters. Hasselblad had to catch up, which they eventually did with Phocus. Obviously, Leica needs a top-notch moiré filter, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted July 2, 2009 Share #415 Posted July 2, 2009 A year from now all of these questions will be answered and the future of Leica will be pretty clear. If the economy doesn't pick up it won't much matter how great their camera is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted July 2, 2009 Share #416 Posted July 2, 2009 If Leica wants to develop their own raw converter, they could indeed take the algorithms used for internal JPEG processing as a starting point. After all, raw conversion and internal image processing are basically the same thing; it is just that the former has a user interface and lots of parameteters to fiddle with. Also there is always dcraw to fall back on. Now if Leica wanted to get fancy and follow the recent trend towards workflow software encompassing much more than just raw conversion, this would take a little more time. The biggest issue is something else, though. When you want to do without an antialiasing filter in front of the sensor, you need an effective moiré filter in your raw conversion software (and also in your internal image processing). This is something Capture One excels in, which made it the preferred raw converter for medium-format backs without antialiasing filters. Hasselblad had to catch up, which they eventually did with Phocus. Obviously, Leica needs a top-notch moiré filter, too. No, sorry, got to disagree with that. The sophistication of the raw converters in any of ACR, Aperture or maybe C1 is well beyond anything in-camera, and well beyond DCRaw as well (much as I respect and admire Dave Coffin's work). Just look at what happens round sharp edges, for example. Or specular highlights. Moire filter - yes, C1's is good, but what's the target market here? Head to head in the full medium format market where guys don't mind having to use a specific converter to get good results? That's a far smaller market than the photographer that uses Photoshop for everything. Just take a look on the Adobe forums at the numbers of people wanting to open their medium format images in ACR. My opinion - the S2 needs to be able to produce a very good, very standard DNG. That way they have Adobe compatibility immediately, and, if they choose the DNG format right, C1 compatibility immediately as well. Requiring specific software to get the best out the camera - from where Leica sits now relative to Phase One, bad move. Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted July 2, 2009 Share #417 Posted July 2, 2009 Wasn't the S2 supposed to be in stores by now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 2, 2009 Share #418 Posted July 2, 2009 Wasn't the S2 supposed to be in stores by now? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted July 3, 2009 Share #419 Posted July 3, 2009 No, sorry, got to disagree with that. The sophistication of the raw converters in any of ACR, Aperture or maybe C1 is well beyond anything in-camera, and well beyond DCRaw as well (much as I respect and admire Dave Coffin's work). Just look at what happens round sharp edges, for example. Or specular highlights. Moire filter - yes, C1's is good, but what's the target market here? Head to head in the full medium format market where guys don't mind having to use a specific converter to get good results? That's a far smaller market than the photographer that uses Photoshop for everything. Just take a look on the Adobe forums at the numbers of people wanting to open their medium format images in ACR. Since you did include Aperture in your list, I could point out that apparently a vendor can successfully introduce a product even when the raw converter at the heart of it was really weak. It took Apple quite a number of releases to implement a decent raw converter, but evidently the functionality Aperture delivered in other areas made up for this deficiency. And I would also point out that internal image processing has matured to a generally high standard by now and that the M8, with its first couple of firmware versions anyway, performed sub-standard. The S2 has to perform better and I trust it will. Having said that, I agree that many photographers will want to stick with the software they are comfortable with, be it Lightroom, Aperture, or Photoshop with ACR. They wouldn’t likely switch their software when they switch cameras. Also, raw conversion solutions supplied by camera vendors hasn’t generally been overly popular. Canon, for example, made DPP a bit more interesting by supporting automatic aberration corrections, but previously, DPP had few die-hard fans. And still, many people (not just in this forum) believe that a camera vendor should supply some raw conversion software, even if it has to be licensed from a third party, if only to provide a reference. Especially in the medium-format market, this argument has some substance. The backs from Imacon (now Hasselblad) and Phase One, for example, mostly used the same CCDs and often got attached to the same cameras. If there was a difference in the results obtained, it was to a large part due to the raw conversion software of the respective vendor. Imacon’s FlexColor had the edge with color rendition, but Phase One’s Capture One had a more efficient moiré filter, so when shooting with an Imacon back, you had to be extra careful with textiles, for example. For Hasselblad/Imacon it was absolutely crucial to improve moiré handling, which they did with Phocus. (Technically it isn’t really a filter, i.e. it is not like moiré was introduced first, only to be removed later. It is rather a matter of applying different demosaicing strategies: Phocus first identifies regions within the image that are susceptible to moiré and switches to a more defensive algorithm in those areas.) Raw conversion is an important step within the photographic process, be in within the camera or on an external computer, and you cannot just deliver raw data and leave it up to the photographer to find a decent raw conversion software that does it justice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 3, 2009 Share #420 Posted July 3, 2009 Michael, 100% agree with you it is vital that Leica supplies 1st class RAW/DNG software with the S2. Maybe they will go back to supplying ACDC like they did with the Digilux 2. I was not impressed with ACDC then but maybe it has improved. After all C1 has improved a lot over the last three years. The other alternative for a pure converter would be Silkypix. I have only just started to play with this for the DNG's from my Ricoh GX200 and have not really formed an opinion yet but seems OK. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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