Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 8, 2009 Share #301 Posted May 8, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) There both 6 micron sensors from Kodak the S2 has Micro lenses added. I said they are basically the same sensors. They are just different sizes . Just like the P45 and P30 Plus backs they are basically the same sensors with different sizes both 6.8 micron but the P30 plus has Micro lenses for gathering light. Obviously some different specs and such but the same family of technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
paulmoore Posted May 8, 2009 Share #302 Posted May 8, 2009 Really? it is my understanding that the S2 kodak sensor is the same generation as the hasselblad50 but larger..someone will be able to provide the product name Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 9, 2009 Share #303 Posted May 9, 2009 That P30 kit price is interesting (not "attractive", because I don't play in that league - yet. But interesting) But I think it just shows that EVERYONE is under pricing pressure right now, both from the overall economy and from the competition. A tough time for photographers, as Guy and Alan have both told us, and thus a tough time for camera makers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 9, 2009 Share #304 Posted May 9, 2009 Yes, this price is becoming interesting. Although the P30+ is not what I need, as I am behind landscape and thus want at least a back with 1.1 Crop. So the P45+ would be the right one for me (not talking about the P65+ because of too much cost ) So I hope that Phase reduces the price also for the P45+ bundle soon. It should get into the €15.000.- range to be competitive with the H3D2 and 39MP bundle from Hasselblad. As already mentioned several times there are immense pricing pressures in MF from their own competition inside this market, from always better high end DSLRs and from the economy itself. So if they want to continue selling and developing something, they need to further optimize. Finally I think this is also a great time that the sensor manufacturers are forced to look more carefully in their processes and costs again, because the sensor prices are still far too high. So Kodak and Dalsa and Sony etc. have new processes at higher output and lower prices ready - FINALLY! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesanacore Posted May 9, 2009 Share #305 Posted May 9, 2009 Does it really cost them this much to make these cameras? Or do they just underestimate their market potential if they would drastically lowered the prices? In other words if they would sell ten times as many cameras by lowering the price 50%, would it be more of less profitable? It would certainly be great for all of us who are sitting by the wayside waiting. Every one of my dozen or so good friends that are also successful photographers all shot with MF cameras in the film days. Not ONE of them uses one in the digital age. I'll be at least half would jump right back if the price dropped enough to make it worth it to them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-25 Posted May 11, 2009 Share #306 Posted May 11, 2009 A friend of mine shot with digital for his architecture work for about a week. Instantly, he saw a big difference in the images from a 1DS-III and his 4x5. And the client he tested it on saw it too. So he sent the digital back and went back to his 4x5, not a bad shooter either: David O. Marlow Photography On another note, I have been able to tell the difference in what was used in print for years, especially when going to large format. I can easily spot 35mm / medium format and large format. There is almost a luminance in the details and the way they relate to one another as the format gets larger. So not long ago, a colleague and I were having dinner with our ladies in tow. The topic came up based on the web hype of not being able to tell the difference in between anything at 11x14 and smaller. So we decided to do a test once we got back to my place. I pulled out coffee table books by John Sexton, Michael Kenna and Eugene Richards. We then separately showed our ladies the books and asked them to tell us which images looked more clear and sharp. Both ladies called out the books in order of format shot, they too could see the difference, we were not imagining things. For years, large format images in magazines, books and in posters have appeared much sharper and livelier in terms of the printed image to me. Medium format still fairly easy to spot against 35mm. And digital? Most of the time it is *very* easy for me to spot over a film image. So there you have it, another set of opinions based on real world experience... When I got a 1Ds, I shot some architecture using it along with 6x9 film. I made 24x36 inch prints from the 1Ds files and showed them to my clients. They all said that they would be happy with that level of quality. I always gave them the option of shooting 4x5. Only one client took me up on that in 5 1/2 years because they needed to blow up huge panoramic views for a sales display. (I'd do that via stitching today.) Now that I have the 5DII and especially the lens correction software, (which was not available for Nikkor lenses used on Nikon film bodies) the images are considerably better. If I get time when I'm back at my office this afternoon, I'll send you a PM with crops from the files. My clients are ad agencies, architects, interior designers, graphic designers, and builders. I've probably worked with more than 100 clients since I started shooting digitally. Not one has ever suggested a desire for more detail. Plus I am not sure if they'd even want to receive 120+meg files from each image. I know two shooters who went to MF and then back to 35mm because MF didn't work for their style of photography. Another local associate of mine who also shoots architecture made the switch from 4x5 to 35mm digital about two years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 11, 2009 Share #307 Posted May 11, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does anyone know what the approximate cost of a 40MP sensor is from Dalsa or Kodak if one put in an order for say 2,000 units. I find the relative costing of the Phase One backs and Phase One back plus camera interesting. The very low additional cost of the camera body with standard lens, indicates to me that the main raw material cost in production, by a huge margin, is the sensor chip. This cost may strictly limit Leica's flexibility in pricing. Those of us who have been to Solms and seen the lens production methods, will understand that Leica lens high costs are not unreasonable, especially those which contain all glass asymmetric elements (many of the opposition use a glass core with a pressed plastic surface to produce asymmetric elements). These methods together with high German labour and social costs are bound to lead to Leica's production costs for their S series lenses being higher than either Mamiya/Phase or Hasselblad/Fuji. There is no point in Leica selling the S2 at a loss just to generate demand, much as I personally would like to see it at a low price. For the above reasons, I suspect that I and others who might be hoping for a "bargain" will be disappointed. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted May 11, 2009 Share #308 Posted May 11, 2009 Wilson : "Aspherical", not "Asymmetric" - but your point came through. Leica ex-CEO Hanns-Peter Cohn is supposed to have said, c. 2000, that "Anything we build at Leica will be expensive - the only thing we can do is justify the expense by making sure it is the best in the world." Whether or not one agrees that they have reached that goal, the underlying economics still apply, for the most part. A Mamiya 645AF body and normal lens are 4,409 + 1,134 from B&H. Obviously PhaseOne gets a nice discount for their investment in Mamiya. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 11, 2009 Share #309 Posted May 11, 2009 Wilson : "Aspherical", not "Asymmetric" - but your point came through. Adan, Sorry - late night yesterday driving friends back to Nice Airport to catch 11.30 PM flight. Was thinking of XLR audio leads not lenses! Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted May 11, 2009 Share #310 Posted May 11, 2009 Does anyone know what the approximate cost of a 40MP sensor is from Dalsa or Kodak if one put in an order for say 2,000 units. I find the relative costing of the Phase One backs and Phase One back plus camera interesting. The very low additional cost of the camera body with standard lens, indicates to me that the main raw material cost in production, by a huge margin, is the sensor chip. This cost may strictly limit Leica's flexibility in pricing. I think this is the $64,000 question with digital. I personally believe that the gear is priced much more by what the companies think they can get than by the cost to manufacture plus reasonable costs for mark-up to handle marketing costs, overhead and profit. If one back sells for $15,000 and a similar back from the same company that uses a different sensor costs $30,000, can this be due to the sensor alone? If the 21 megapixel FF sensor of a 1DsIII adds $2000+ to the price of the otherwise identical 1DIII, then how come a 5DII with a similar or better 21 megapixel sensor can sell for $2700? The same applies to the D3X, D3 Sony A900. This kind of high markup has been very common in all camera gear for a long time. It explains why a $1.00 plastic level can sell for $40.00. 20 years ago the cheap plastic Polaroid back for my Rollei cost $660.00. This was simply a standard $60 Polaroid back with a little plastic fitting added. (Entire Polaroid cameras with a similar back cost Less than $50.00 at the time.) Balcar used to charge $35 for modeling lamps that I could buy at a hardware store for $5. Some flash companies charge $350 for a flashtube, yet White Lightning sells flashtubes for $25-$50. $30 lens caps and $120 batteries are S.O.P. for Leica. And similar markup for other companies exist. Why does an M8 battery charger sell for $150 and a 5DII battery charger sell for $70? The battery charger for the 1DS is about $350!!! I could go on and on about this from countless examples of things I had to pay through the nose for over the years.. Companies try to make a big profit on the small stuff - filters, cases, accessories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted May 11, 2009 Share #311 Posted May 11, 2009 Exactly what I have and it is a very nice back. The pressure is on the industry and this is just one item out there. Hassy has been a little too quiet lately on new product and there using basically the same sensor as the S2 on there h3/ 50 back. hassy is using the same pixel design, just their sensor is MUCH bigger than the S2 sensor. and we all know the importance of sensor real estate. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted May 11, 2009 Share #312 Posted May 11, 2009 I think this is the $64,000 question with digital. I personally believe that the gear is priced much more by what the companies think they can get than by the cost to manufacture plus reasonable costs for mark-up to handle marketing costs, overhead and profit. If one back sells for $15,000 and a similar back from the same company that uses a different sensor costs $30,000, can this be due to the sensor alone? If the 21 megapixel FF sensor of a 1DsIII adds $2000+ to the price of the otherwise identical 1DIII, then how come a 5DII with a similar or better 21 megapixel sensor can sell for $2700? The same applies to the D3X, D3 Sony A900. This kind of high markup has been very common in all camera gear for a long time. It explains why a $1.00 plastic level can sell for $40.00. 20 years ago the cheap plastic Polaroid back for my Rollei cost $660.00. This was simply a standard $60 Polaroid back with a little plastic fitting added. (Entire Polaroid cameras with a similar back cost Less than $50.00 at the time.) Balcar used to charge $35 for modeling lamps that I could buy at a hardware store for $5. Some flash companies charge $350 for a flashtube, yet White Lightning sells flashtubes for $25-$50. $30 lens caps and $120 batteries are S.O.P. for Leica. And similar markup for other companies exist. Why does an M8 battery charger sell for $150 and a 5DII battery charger sell for $70? The battery charger for the 1DS is about $350!!! I could go on and on about this from countless examples of things I had to pay through the nose for over the years.. Companies try to make a big profit on the small stuff - filters, cases, accessories. Man!!, am I glad I had no customers who wanted to see my f & p invoices when I was shooting film like you guys want to see...can't imagine someone anyone letting out such info..as it has little bearing. I have a hard time believing it is coming from guys who have their own business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted May 12, 2009 Share #313 Posted May 12, 2009 I actually know something about the sensor cost but my information came around about 2-3 years ago, by that time, the 36x48 medium format sensor unit cost on a average was already in the lower 4 digit range. I would imagine a 30x45 sensor should cost much less than that when taking today's fab technology and operational cost into consideration. But as Alan has pointed out, there are many other factors in the play. Something worth mentioning is, Kodak's 6 micron sensor only has a dynamic range of 70.2 db, DALSA's 6 micron sensor has a DR of full 74 db. By normal practice, 6 db translate into 1 stop, so that's about 3.8/6=0.633 stops, more half a stop of DR advantage with the DALSA sensor. That should be one of the biggest reasons why Leaf, Phase and Hassey have moved, and/or will move to Dalsa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 12, 2009 Share #314 Posted May 12, 2009 I can tell you flat out after testing the P25+, P45+ Kodak sensors and the P65+ Dalsa sensor there is about 1/3 of a stop to the better as you go up . The P65+ has more DR no question about it over the P45+ and P25+. Now they rate the P65 + and new P40+ at 12.5 stops of DR and I can tell you that is a conservative number. The Dalsa sensor has a different look as well not better or worse just different. Also both these backs have no micro lenses and no restrictions on Tech camera's like my P30+ has which is a Kodak sensor. I happen to like the Kodak sensors but these new Dalsa ones look pretty darn good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 12, 2009 Share #315 Posted May 12, 2009 IMHO Dalsa sensors are the leading one's in the moment. Reasons: 1) Dynamic range 2) Sensor structure 3) Sheer size 4) Sheer number of MPs What I do not understand is why Kodak does not make use of this know how, as they own Dalsa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 12, 2009 Share #316 Posted May 12, 2009 IMHO Dalsa sensors are the leading one's in the moment. Reasons: 1) Dynamic range 2) Sensor structure 3) Sheer size 4) Sheer number of MPs What I do not understand is why Kodak does not make use of this know how, as they own Dalsa Peter, Does that mean that there is in effect now only one company making sensors bigger than 24 x 36mm? Does Imacon still make sensors? If it is only one company, they can, of course, charge what they like. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 12, 2009 Share #317 Posted May 12, 2009 Kodak is still making sensors both in the 6 micron and 6.8 micron flavors but the biggest is the new Hassy 50 which is not Full Frame 645. For Kodak , I think I have this correct 6 micron the Hassy 50 biggest size and the S2 smallest size 6.8 micron Phase P45+ and Hassy H3/39 Both 39 mpx Phase P30+ and Hassy H3/31 Both 31mpx Dalsa . Not sure on all the configs. But all of the Leaf Backs and Sinar Backs, although Sinar does use a Kodak 31mpx sensor in one back Phase Backs P65+ only FF sensor, The New P40+ which is basically a crop P65 these are the newest breeds of Dalsa sensors 9 micron sensors have been discontinued Sorry I don't have the exact dimensions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted May 12, 2009 Share #318 Posted May 12, 2009 Dalsa has nothing to do with Kodak, it is an indenpendent company listed in Toronto Exchange (DSA). Kodak owns Leaf but Leaf doesn't use Kodak sensors, I guess that's how Peter got confused. Kodak's takeover target was Leaf's mother company Creo with an eye on their pre-press technology, they've probably never known that Creo has a tiny division doing high end backs till it's too late. Kodak is in pretty bad shape, boys. Their CEO said in the last AGM that they're looking for a partner in sensor manufacturing and will not continue to invest big in this department. There're sensor fabs all over the world, show them the money they'll do anything for you, although not quite on the same level of quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted May 12, 2009 Share #319 Posted May 12, 2009 It does seem the new wave in Sensors is shifting to Dalsa. Kodak did have a pretty strong hold on it for quite sometime. All the Leica products are Kodak. I do like the Kodak sensors myself and I do hope they hang in there. They still have the new Hassy 50 and S2 in there camp as far as new product but as we see Phase a strong Kodak buyer in the past has shifted 2 of there new backs to Dalsa. Right now you can buy either a Dalsa back and Kodak backs. One bad thing on Dalsa is long exposures the best you can get is 1 minute. Kodak the P45+ and P30+ you can go a full hour and I believe the S2 will get in this range( let me qualify this only the Phase backs go a full hour due to software , the same Hassy backs go to only 30 minutes with same sensor. Right now not sure what the S2 will due because Leica is still deciding what software to tag with it). Something to think about when buying depending on what type of shooting you do. For most folks 1 minute is enough but landscape shooters may lean more to the Kodak for those night shots. Admittedly I have not gone much over 1 minute myself but I have tried much longer. If you have a 30 minute shot remember you also have a 30 minute dark frame to go with it. So that is a total hour just for a 30 minute shot. Patience grasshopper but it is fun to shoot the stars . LOL Dalsa does look to have wider DR to it also over the Kodak and DR is very important and severely lacking in 35mm. MF is a world of difference here. They can post all the numbers and DXO tests they want but trust me it ain't even close to MF with either type of sensor. Also at this point Dalsa make the biggest sensor between them with the P65 which is TRULY Full Frame 645. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted May 12, 2009 Share #320 Posted May 12, 2009 Dalsa has nothing to do with Kodak, it is an indenpendent company listed in Toronto Exchange (DSA). Kodak owns Leaf but Leaf doesn't use Kodak sensors, I guess that's how Peter got confused. Kodak's takeover target was Leaf's mother company Creo with an eye on their pre-press technology, they've probably never known that Creo has a tiny division doing high end backs till it's too late. Kodak is in pretty bad shape, boys. Their CEO said in the last AGM that they're looking for a partner in sensor manufacturing and will not continue to invest big in this department. There're sensor fabs all over the world, show them the money they'll do anything for you, although not quite on the same level of quality. You are right, this was confusing for me. Anyway I think the latest and greatest sensors come from Dalsa. Not sure how big that market for these type of sensors is anyway, but it is scary if there would not be competition in the future especially for prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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