thebarnman Posted July 7, 2009 Share #521 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) To try and claim that a cassette recorder equalled a reel to reel recorder on the basis of frequency response alone is disingenuous IMHO. It's rather like comparing a point and shoot camera to an M8 on the basis of pixel count, there's far more to an image than the number of pixels, and there's far more to a recording that the frequency response. I agree with you on many points. Wow and flutter, headroom, (and noise floor) dynamic range and more was better (and easier to achieve) on reel to reel. However those kinds of things were more important when recording your own live music than say with limited audio recordings (particularly compressed rock music on LPs and radio). So my best guess would be it probably depended on the type of source one used for their own recordings before buying into a system. I've seen large printed blowups from both DSLRs and Digital MF files side by side with each image being different and all shot in a studio. At first, it was hard to see quality differences. So when I asked what images were from the DSLRs, I was told to simply look. After a while it became apparent, the ones from a DSLR were a bit more dull and flat (an exaggeration at most) while the Digital MF files had more "presence" looked more solid and had more "life" to them. That was almost four years ago. So I can't imagine how newer, very high end DSLR files might compare to Digital MF files of today. I remember hearing a demo between a Elcaset and reel to reel format. It was a recording of an LP and my much younger ears couldn't hear any differences. I was impressed. So it will be very interesting to see how close the "S" system might come to achieving real Digital MF quality. If it can achieve that kind of quality in a package that consumers (and pros) might like, Leica might have a winner on their hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 7, 2009 Posted July 7, 2009 Hi thebarnman, Take a look here S2 under pricing pressure. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted July 7, 2009 Share #522 Posted July 7, 2009 The world has never been in shortage of millionaires and billionaires, even in this gloomy economy there are people making tons of money everyday. So honestly I have never considered that price would be a hurdle in selling the S2. The number of millionaires and billionaires has dropped 14.9% worldwide in the first half of this year. Except in Germany, where it only dropped 3.2%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreas_thomsen Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share #523 Posted July 7, 2009 do u think the end of leica and phase one' reltionship means anything to the timescedule of the S2 and the performance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhoersch Posted July 7, 2009 Share #524 Posted July 7, 2009 do u think the end of leica and phase one' reltionship means anything to the timescedule of the S2 and the performance? Yes, because now Leica is without the professional sales and service organization needed to impress the professional market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 7, 2009 Share #525 Posted July 7, 2009 I wonder if Leica will buy in existing digital MF equipment at a very good price to get photographers to switch? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 7, 2009 Share #526 Posted July 7, 2009 I wonder, Manfred. For sales and service, was it really such a good idea to team up? Sales can be handled by top dealers that cater for the professional market already like Robert White as an example. Service, well what would a local Phase one technician do with a broken S2:confused: Send it to Solms and hand out a loaner I suspect. That means Leica needs an agreement with Fedex more than one with Phase One. If they can get a loaner camera into the hands of the pro user within an acceptable time, with that time depending on the location and the urgency obviously, they can repair the camera or lens within a decent timespan, say 3 to 5 days and still claim a professional service. No, the main question is that of software and tethering. I hope they can solve that one in time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted July 7, 2009 Share #527 Posted July 7, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wonder, Manfred. For sales and service, was it really such a good idea to team up? Sales can be handled by top dealers that cater for the professional market already like Robert White as an example. Service, well what would a local Phase one technician do with a broken S2:confused: Send it to Solms and hand out a loaner I suspect. That means Leica needs an agreement with Fedex more than one with Phase One. If they can get a loaner camera into the hands of the pro user within an acceptable time, with that time depending on the location and the urgency obviously, they can repair the camera or lens within a decent timespan, say 3 to 5 days and still claim a professional service.No, the main question is that of software and tethering. I hope they can solve that one in time. I agree, the real problem to solve for them is the SW problem. It took Phase some 8 - 10 years to develop C1Pro to its current perfection and even if Leica is very fast, it will take longer than just 1 or 2 releases of their SW to come close and to be stable on Windows and Mac platforms. This is the most serious restriction I see for the success of the S System, especially in Pro areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #528 Posted July 7, 2009 I wonder, Manfred. For sales and service, was it really such a good idea to team up? Sales can be handled by top dealers that cater for the professional market already like Robert White as an example. Service, well what would a local Phase one technician do with a broken S2:confused: Send it to Solms and hand out a loaner I suspect. That means Leica needs an agreement with Fedex more than one with Phase One. If they can get a loaner camera into the hands of the pro user within an acceptable time, with that time depending on the location and the urgency obviously, they can repair the camera or lens within a decent timespan, say 3 to 5 days and still claim a professional service.No, the main question is that of software and tethering. I hope they can solve that one in time. Jaap thought this maybe on interest . This is on my dealers website for Capture Integration which sells the Phase systems. Doug the Head of tech. support is giving here data on the phone calls he receives. Obviously this is a dealer now and not the OEM itself but this is what customers call about. I found it quite interesting the type of calls. SW being a biggy here Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/82842-s2-under-pricing-pressure/?do=findComment&comment=955452'>More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 7, 2009 Share #529 Posted July 7, 2009 Especially the number of workflow calls surprises me, Guy, given that these are presumably calls by experienced photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesanacore Posted July 7, 2009 Share #530 Posted July 7, 2009 I agree, the real problem to solve for them is the SW problem. It took Phase some 8 - 10 years to develop C1Pro to its current perfection and even if Leica is very fast, it will take longer than just 1 or 2 releases of their SW to come close and to be stable on Windows and Mac platforms. This is the most serious restriction I see for the success of the S System, especially in Pro areas. My first Digilux Leica come with tethering software so why can't the S3 come with it too? How hard can it be to write software to shoot tethered and then use LIghtroom and Photoshop to process the images? 99.9% of the working pros use Lightroom and Photoshop every day, so as long as the S2 raw files are supported by Adobe, I don't think there is any need for Capture One at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesanacore Posted July 7, 2009 Share #531 Posted July 7, 2009 I agree with you on many points. Wow and flutter, headroom, (and noise floor) dynamic range and more was better (and easier to achieve) on reel to reel. However those kinds of things were more important when recording your own live music than say with limited audio recordings (particularly compressed rock music on LPs and radio). So my best guess would be it probably depended on the type of source one used for their own recordings before buying into a system. I've seen large printed blowups from both DSLRs and Digital MF files side by side with each image being different and all shot in a studio. At first, it was hard to see quality differences. So when I asked what images were from the DSLRs, I was told to simply look. After a while it became apparent, the ones from a DSLR were a bit more dull and flat (an exaggeration at most) while the Digital MF files had more "presence" looked more solid and had more "life" to them. That was almost four years ago. So I can't imagine how newer, very high end DSLR files might compare to Digital MF files of today. I remember hearing a demo between a Elcaset and reel to reel format. It was a recording of an LP and my much younger ears couldn't hear any differences. I was impressed. So it will be very interesting to see how close the "S" system might come to achieving real Digital MF quality. If it can achieve that kind of quality in a package that consumers (and pros) might like, Leica might have a winner on their hands. Comparing analog devices to digital devices just doesn't relate. I hear colorful statements to describe how MF images look better than 35mm DSLR images - but I don't see any proof. It's all digital so at some point it's all zeros and ones. I can understand dynamic range being better in some cases. But what else makes Digital MF quality better than 35mm sized sensor camera quality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #532 Posted July 7, 2009 Especially the number of workflow calls surprises me, Guy, given that these are presumably calls by experienced photographers. Exactly , I just find this data a little surprising to a degree. Now obviously we would have to see the numbers that went directly to the OEM and chart that for a comparison. But most folks would call there dealer first. I know I do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 7, 2009 Share #533 Posted July 7, 2009 My first Digilux Leica come with tethering software so why can't the S3 come with it too? How hard can it be to write software to shoot tethered and then use LIghtroom and Photoshop to process the images? 99.9% of the working pros use Lightroom and Photoshop every day, so as long as the S2 raw files are supported by Adobe, I don't think there is any need for Capture One at all. I absolutely agree - the wheel already exists - Aperture and Lightroom are both fine pieces of software - it's only the tethering which is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted July 7, 2009 Share #534 Posted July 7, 2009 I absolutely agree - the wheel already exists - Aperture and Lightroom are both fine pieces of software - it's only the tethering which is needed. Is that the reason both Phaseone and Hassleblad supply their own? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #535 Posted July 7, 2009 No both Phocus and C1 are fine tuned for there backs( have several camera profiles built in) and both have lens correction adjustments for all of there glass plus there tethering software is top notch for each software package. Also noise, sharpening and a whole list of other stuff is built into the back profiles. Just not as simple as some may think Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted July 7, 2009 Share #536 Posted July 7, 2009 Just not as simple as some may think Perhaps with the S2 and Lightroom it might be.... (assuming that Leica goes in this direction) No lens/sensor corrections, no proprietary import/export, worflow that most photographers are already familiar with, Adobe behind software advances/feature improvements, digital asset management, tight integration with web and print, retouching tools, 3rd party plug-in support (Viveza, etc). You could also use Aperture and substitute "Apple" for "Adobe". Either way, both the "A's" promote user confidence with their ability to deliver full-featured, stable, and ubiquitous software platforms. Shooting the S2 can become as simple and seamless from a workflow standpoint as shooting a D3x or 5DmkII. As far as tethering support, we will just have to wait and see. I agree that Phocus and C1 have great tethering support with camera control and LV. I'm curious to see what Leica comes up with. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #537 Posted July 7, 2009 Be interesting to see what Leica does agreed . But I am still not buying the lens/Sensor correction stuff that Leica will not need. Sorry no lens is perfect and a 24mm will have barrel distortion unless it is the size of a truck and costs thousands. This one you have to prove to me without some in-camera corrections going on or in the software. No such thing as a perfect lens especially in the wide angles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted July 7, 2009 Share #538 Posted July 7, 2009 Be interesting to see what Leica does agreed . But I am still not buying the lens/Sensor correction stuff that Leica will not need. Sorry no lens is perfect and a 24mm will have barrel distortion unless it is the size of a truck and costs thousands. This one you have to prove to me without some in-camera corrections going on or in the software. No such thing as a perfect lens especially in the wide angles. You're right. Until we see some real-life samples from the S lenses on the S2, we really won't know for sure. But, why would Leica exaggerate this (repeated) claim? Peter Karbe (head of optics design) told me himself that the S lenses would require no software correction and that "the S lenses are the best we have ever made, in any format." Leica is always very honest and accurate in describing individual lens characteristics and performance. I see no reason not to believe this claim. Just look at what the latest crop of wide-angle lenses for the M system are capable of. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted July 7, 2009 Share #539 Posted July 7, 2009 But David the new Summilux 24 have reported CA also. So nothing is perfect. Big thread over my place on that not sure if there is one here but C1 handles it. User Report: 24/1.4 ASPH: Disappointing. - The GetDPI Workshop Forums My 28 cron had CA. I just wish they would word things differently. But I'm being picky also. Let me add though I tried this lens at PMA and it is a beauty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesanacore Posted July 7, 2009 Share #540 Posted July 7, 2009 But David the new Summilux 24 have reported CA also. So nothing is perfect. Big thread over my place on that not sure if there is one here but C1 handles it. User Report: 24/1.4 ASPH: Disappointing. - The GetDPI Workshop Forums My 28 cron had CA. I just wish they would word things differently. But I'm being picky also. Let me add though I tried this lens at PMA and it is a beauty. Well there is always the option to correct it yourself in LR or PS as I do all the time with my older glass, (and most of my new Canon glass too). Or maybe Leica and others could create plug-ins that would apply the corrections with one click? Either way it's really not a big deal to fix manually on the finished images, although it must be nice when your tethering software does it on the fly. I guess some of you MF users can try it and see how it compares with LR's tools. In the film days, it seemed like we could all pick up one of a dozen cameras, (Nikon, Canon, Hasselblad, Contax, Rollei, Sinar etc etc etc. etc. and get fantastic results. I guess digital sensors have just raised the bar on optics to a level that prohibits too many manufacturers from playing the game. I also work in video/film and in that world, Zeiss, Cooke and Panavision, among others are meeting the challenges of high resolution optics but the prices reflect the higher specs and performance. I hope the S2 really turns out to be fantastic - but reasonably priced in order to justify it to people like us, who work for a living :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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