S2 under pricing pressure

[dfarkas]

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Here is what I was really going after on that assignment. It was to sell the views from condos that were under construction. I did the job so well that the owner of the ad agency bought the unit I shot from. Well I'm off to shoot from another roof tonight...

 

Alan,

 

This is Tampa, right? Nice shot.

 

David

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[dfarkas]

It is hard for me to see how these companies could be competitors on one hand and work together on the other. It makes sense for Leica to develop some kind of software and firmware capability in house. Being dependent on a competitor would make them pretty vulnerable.

 

Agreed, but I don't think they will try to create a from-scratch RAW processing software. Firmware, yes. They already have done all the firmware development for the S2 and the latest firmware for the M8 in house.

 

They really just need to make very good tethering and browsing software for the S2 as well as any kind of special lens optimization in the firmware. Besides, I may be wrong but if Leica makes its own C1 profiles for the S2, won't the S2 DNG files work in C1? Maybe just tether the camera to a hot folder that gets automatically refreshed in C-1. Other cameras can work this way.

 

Unfortunately, regardless of profile development, if Phase chooses to exclude a camera from C1, it will not work.

 

Separately, Leica would probably have to make lenses that cover a larger image circle in order to work on the Phase One camera. It seems unlikely to me that they'll make two lines of MF lenses. I can't see Leica helping Phase One sell cameras. Why couldn't Phase One simply buy some Zeiss or Schneider MF glass if they felt they needed better quality?

 

I agree that Leica making Mamiya mount lenses is highly unlikely. Leica has directly stated that this isn't going to happen. The same way that Phase's competitive edge in MFD is their software (which they don't share with competitors), Leica's edge is in the lenses.

 

I also doubt that Phase/Mamiya will go to Zeiss for lenses. Their goal is to do it in-house less expensively. I don't think that Phase would give a bunch of Zeiss MF lenses away with a digital back purchase. It would just cost too much for their business model.

 

David

[AlanG]

Unfortunately, regardless of profile development, if Phase chooses to exclude a camera from C1, it will not work.

 

 

I wasn't sure how this works with DNG files. I've used C1 for about 6 years but mostly for tethered shooting, quickly selecting the best files, and making proofs. I do almost all of my conversions in DXO due to its lens correction and DXO Lighting. The highlight and shadow controls in C1 don't come close to what the DXO Lighting can do for me. It also has more intuitive ways to adjust each color than using the C1 color editor. On the other hand C1 has very good skin tone settings. But the geometry and other controls in DXO let me make a finished tif that doesn't need additional work (except retouching.)

 

So if C1 isn't available for the S2 maybe Leica just has to get DXO support for it. And of course a way to shoot tethered.

[AlanG]

Alan,

 

This is Tampa, right? Nice shot.

 

David

 

Thanls, yes it's Tampa

 

I used to shoot a lot in West Palm Beach, South Beach, Tampa, Clearwater, Orlando, and Atlanta. If the condo market picks up maybe I'll be back down there and will stop by to say hi and check out the S2. I'd be able to afford one then too.

[adan]

Hi Alan!

 

Below is a revise of your film shot, using "selective color" in PS to take out cyan overall while adding it back to the sky - and HSB to bump red/yellow saturation and shift the sky a bit more. Doesn't take much to get close to the Canon rendition...

 

...but I'm with you... ordered a Canon 5Dii to use as my "mini-S2" until Leica figures out what they are going to do, if anything, as an "R" replacement. Getting an adapter so I can adopt a few orphaned Leica R lenses - and I can still use the TS Canons also if I want.

 

(Not replacing my M8s, just for use when I need the bigger files or those "SLR" goodies like macro, TS, etc.)

 

Your "locked-in" story reminds me of getting access to the roof of the 35-story Huntington Bancshares building in Columbus for a shoot. Security forgot I was up there and shut off the elevator, so I had to run DOWN 35 stories to find the stairwell door locked, and back UP 25 stories to find an open floor where I could call them on the emegency 'phone. With a bag full of Nikons.

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[jaapv]

Another thought I discussed on the Leica - Phase relationship with an Austrian dealer:

 

There are rumors that there will be much more cooperation between the 2 companies as just SW. This rumors say that Leica might develop (adapt) lenses for the Phase (Mamiya) system. In my eyes this would make some sense as this would definitely bring the world's best glass in front of the Phase backs. And create a good revenue stream for Leica as the installed (used) base of Phase back on Mamiya cameras is huge and would become even larger through this cooperation.

 

What if Leica does not want to position the S System as a competitor to a real MF system like Phase or Hasselbald? What if the really wanted to create the right compact but stellar quality DSLR system - a new Leica format - which allows them to offer high end DSLRs which are kind of the missing link between MF and 35? And have then another evenue stream from the real MF market y bringing Phase to a new level with their Leica optics?

 

Maybe I am dreaming too much, but I definitely did not smoke anything

 

Maybe you are not dreaming - this makes perfect sense.

[georg]

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In September 2008 Leica announces to cooperate with Phase to distribute the S2. A few months later, this agreement no longer exists but Phase bought Mamiya and became a MF-system-seller... and now Leica should make lenses for this system? Seems very unlikely.

 

Sorry, but the 1ds vs 6x9 comparison seems a little bit unfair, I don't know this lens and I don't know how well this scanner performs, but this crop is simply unsharp, grain is barely visible and even the dust is not very sharp. I can't surpass 35mm-Velvia-resolution with my M8 and I don't think a 1ds can that, either-

[AlanG]

Hi Alan!

 

Below is a revise of your film shot, using "selective color" in PS to take out cyan overall while adding it back to the sky - and HSB to bump red/yellow saturation and shift the sky a bit more. Doesn't take much to get close to the Canon rendition...

 

 

Yes nice job. I haven't done film scanning in some time and found the scanning software very limited compared with raw conversion software. I didn't want to go to all the trouble to adjust it as I only really cared about the detail. I think I used to be more dialed in with the scanner when I used it a lot. On that job, it came down to the dusk shot being the one, so I don't think I ever showed any of the earlier shots.

 

Yes being locked into building may be a more common issue than people know. I've gotten all of my gear locked between two sets of doors at 3AM while my assistant and I were outside. Another time We were locked inside the parking garage despite assurances from the person on site that there would be no problem parking there. As a lot of office shoots are at night, he had to wake up the building engineer at 4AM to reprogram the door lock over the phone.

 

The shoot last night on a rooftop required me to arrange in advance to get permission to access the masonry scaffold that was at the top of the building. (Waiver & insurance certificate.) Otherwise all kinds of cables and supports would be in the way. Fortunately there was no wind as the thing would move even if I just shifted my weight a bit. These are the kind of surprises that can come up and bite you if you don't check everything out in advance.

 

I posted it to show what a wonderful work environment I had. The finished shot is a composite of the sky at sunset, a lighter version of the foreground and the train and station at night.

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[AlanG]

Sorry, but the 1ds vs 6x9 comparison seems a little bit unfair, I don't know this lens and I don't know how well this scanner performs, but this crop is simply unsharp, grain is barely visible and even the dust is not very sharp. I can't surpass 35mm-Velvia-resolution with my M8 and I don't think a 1ds can that, either-

 

It got all the detail out of the file. Some of that dust is on the glass above and below the film. The grain is clearly visible so there won't be a lot more detail if I get it crisp. A 65 4.5 Rodenstock Grandagon at f11 is about the best lens for this angle and format. The original is a 6x12 piece of film. I most likely used a center filter as that is standard operating procedure for w/a on a view camera. So that may degrade sharpness a bit too. (Although the image is very detailed.) The point was to show what the difference between a zoom lens on an 11 megapixel camera and an in camera jpeg (a really easy way to shoot) and using a view camera, 6x9 film and a 4000 dpi scanner of reasonable quality. (A much slower and more expensive way to work that would be still more expensive if we paid for the best drum scans.) It is up to the end user to decide if the difference is important for their application.

 

I'm posting a crop from another scan. (I hate scanning.) Some parts or features of the image handle 400% interpolation better than other parts. This is a section of a 43 inch wide photo. Consider the 1Ds file was wider and required more magnification for the building to match the 6x9 scan. If it were shot to the correct size with a prime lens on a 5DII, the image would require way less magnification and surely would be better. This is basically comparing around 8-9 megapixels to the equivalent of more than 100 megapixels. When you think about it, that is about 3 times the resolution and that is probably about the difference in resolution between these antenna crops.

 

I am not disputing that larger film has more detail. And a better scanner will do a better job. I was doing a comparison of what I was used to giving to my clients with 6x9 film and scans vs. a 1Ds. (They generally did not want such large scans either - usually around 40 megs.) That was the comment on my earlier post. This has nothing to do with the maximum quality possible. I barely ever shoot with a 1Ds anymore. Maybe I'll do a 6x9 vs. 5DII test since I have a bit of 120 film in the freezer.

 

Here are crops from another part of the image to show that the 6x9 has much more detail. (I was holding these back to first see the reaction from the crops of the other section.) But it is only obvious in some areas of the image when printed in a large size. It will never matter in web use or some of the typical uses for images in magazines and ads. I don't think there is a different intrinsic "look" unless you see the film grain.

 

The real bottom line will be if the the S2 consistently produces much better detail than the 5DII+top prime lens+DXO under typical repeatable working conditions. And if that added detail is something my clients will see and will be willing to pay more for. They weren't willing to do that to keep me shooting MF and LF film. So If I have to lay out at least $30-$50K on a new system, I'll have to see a return on it reasonably quickly. Perhaps if one didn't already own a lot of 35mm gear it would be easier to justify choosing the S2 over the Canon or Nikon systems.

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[georg]

"The real bottom line will be if the the S2 consistently produces much better detail than the 5DII+top prime lens+DXO under typical repeatable working conditions"

 

From what I've seen (100ASA shots with early prototypes on Photokina): a clear yes. But if your clients are happy with your 5DII-quality and you're fine with it's handling and don't think you can make any money with technically better images you should spend the 20k$+ on a nice vacation ;-).

 

As I already said, I don't know lens or scanner used, but those 6x9-slides don't do the medium film justice. I'm struggling with my archive currently, so I'm only able to show a known slide (35Asph, Velvia 100 + Imacon 646 @ 5000ppi and sharpened/filtered with NoiseNinja) - it's hanging on my wall directly beneath a M8-image - the scan looks a little bit less clean but more natural in details:

 

I think a five times (!!!) bigger slide should do better than that...

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[ptomsu]

Folks,

 

independent of what camera, scanner or workflow or whatever used, these samples look terrible - sorry.

 

If a Leica S2 cannot do MUCH better then just forget it. Even my 5D2 can do better with the "ohhh so bad" C L- Lenses.

[AlanG]

From what I've seen (100ASA shots with early prototypes on Photokina): a clear yes. But if your clients are happy with your 5DII-quality and you're fine with it's handling and don't think you can make any money with technically better images you should spend the 20k$+ on a nice vacation ;-).

.

 

I don't think $20,000 vacations are in the cards any time soon.

 

$20,000 would be cheap and is around what a body and 70 may cost. When I shot on the rooftop a couple of days ago I had 2 bodies, a 15 fisheye, 16-35, 24-105IS, 100-400IS, 24 TS-E, 45 TS-E, and 35 PC Nikkor. I shot daytime views with all the zoom lenses and the fisheye. I only used the 24-105 for the dusk shots as I wanted to be able to quickly re-compose when the train was at the station. All of this gear cost about $12,600. When I had 6x6 I owned 2 bodies, 40, 50, 80, 150, 250, 350 and various accessories.

 

So when the S2 first comes out, it will only have 4 lenses, most of which are not the ones I'd prefer (based on the announced future lenses.)

 

Lets assume these prices (comparable to or lower than Hasselblad) - The body with 70mm - $18,000, 24mm - $4,000, 30mm TS - $7,000, 30-90 zoom - $7,000, 180 - $3,000. I think I am being conservative. So a single body system with the 5 lenses that I could use and without a longer telephoto will cost $39,000. And I would still need a 35mm system for the things that the S2 can't do. Add a second body and a longer lens and we are probably close to $60K.

[sdai]

I would only want 3 lenses on your list Alan ... the 24, the TS and the 30-90 zoomer. I want to try all of them when they become available at a rental house nearby and find it out whether they're really worth it.

[AlanG]

I would only want 3 lenses on your list Alan ... the 24, the TS and the 30-90 zoomer. I want to try all of them when they become available at a rental house nearby and find it out whether they're really worth it.

 

Yes, but if I were going to spend so much for a system, I'd want quite a few lenses so that it would be versatile enough to be usable for a lot of work. Only 4 lenses are listed at this point on Leica's S2 site. And those 3 lenses you indicated will not even be out with the initial release. So it may be a while before anyone knows what the entire system can do.

 

Keep in mind that if you shoot with the S2 and end up cropping, you'll lose something. Let say you have the 30-90 zoom and the 180, but you shoot at 90 and crop because you need the view that a 150 would give you. Maybe you'd be better off shooting with a 5DII and a 24-105, or 70-200 and frame tightly. There's a lot to consider when you are spending this much.

 

In the old days, I had two Rollei 6006 bodies and the 6 lenses. But I also had a Kiev 66 and 30mm fisheye. (The camera is terrible but the lens was useful.) And I have a 55 Shift, 80, and 120 Biometar for it so that I could have some kind of backup if the shutter in one of my Rollei lenses broke. So I basically had 10 lenses for the 6x6 format. I also had a Linhof 6x9 Super Technika with Zeiss 53, 100, and 180 lenses, 2 4x5 Linhofs (with various roll film backs) and 12 lenses, and at one time a Cambo Wide with 47 and 65. (Mostly used with 6x6 and 6x12.) So I was pretty particular about getting things exactly right with medium and large format film.

 

A body and three lenses would not cut it for me. I'd probably need to spend $60-$80K at least for an MF system that still won't do nearly what I am able to do on film. (I still have a lot of film gear.) As much as I may like to have MF digital quality, that is a steep price for me to try to justify. It makes the 35mm digital gear look very affordable and versatile in comparison. Hopefully for Leica, others can more easily justify the cost.

[ptomsu]

The beauty of the S System for me is, that it is based on Leica lenses. Not that these are 100% perfect, we all know that, but they are much better than other lenses (except Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock - the good old German lenses).

 

So the lenses will be the big assets! And the mobility and size of this system. And I think that the 40MP (37) will be more than enough.

 

The longer I investigate MF systems, the more I see that one can already achieve stunning large size fine art prints with 20MP and even with 35mm format. So the larger sensor of the S2 plus the 37MP plus the lens quality of Leica glass are a promising and very appealing combination!

 

And the freedom to chose from a number of Leica lenses! And I hope the system will be further expanded once it is established.

 

So long term efinitely more than 4 lenses I would buy

[SteveYork]

What's the latest estimate for the retail cost of an S2 body, and a lens or two? Just curious.

[wildlightphoto]

What's the latest estimate for the retail cost of an S2 body, and a lens or two? Just curious.

 

No estimates, only speculation.

[paulmoore]

yes all speculation.. and wishfull/fearfull thinkings..

I posted the other day on another site this about the S2.. I place here hoping someone from solms may read and consider.

"..Now that their attention is fixed squarly on the S2, I hope the powers in charge will put it in gear and release a S2 system that is complete enough

to intice commercial shooters to buy into it..a camera + 4 lenses is plenty for what I do, but not enough for how a lot of others shoot.

 

If they want some quick action on sales.. how about this offer for the first 1000 pro's willing to pony-up, "buy the whole kit (body +4 lenses) get an extra body thrown". that would kick-start this thing.

 

There are more than one of us Rollei users that are concerned about the future with franke-heidecke products and a little incentive would go a long way."

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Hallo,

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[stevesanacore]

In my experience with almost all MF cameras in the film days, the Leica optics I am using now on my Canon bodies is probably far superior to my Hasse CF t* lenses and any of my Schnider or Rodenstock View camera lenses, let alone my Mamiya 645 glass. According to my understanding, the smaller the format the better the optics had to be for equal quality upon enlargement.

 

So if Leica maintains it's quality of it's R glass, then there should be no comparison with it's MF competition from Fuji and Mamiya.

 

But at what price? That is the question that will make or break our hopes. I think those of us who would buy the Leica S over a Mamiya or H3 system will do so only to satisfy our own demands as most of my clients would probably never see the difference anyway.

 

Sometimes I wish Leica would have just stuck with the R10 and it's current R lens line.

 

 

The beauty of the S System for me is, that it is based on Leica lenses. Not that these are 100% perfect, we all know that, but they are much better than other lenses (except Zeiss, Schneider, Rodenstock - the good old German lenses).

 

So the lenses will be the big assets! And the mobility and size of this system. And I think that the 40MP (37) will be more than enough.

 

The longer I investigate MF systems, the more I see that one can already achieve stunning large size fine art prints with 20MP and even with 35mm format. So the larger sensor of the S2 plus the 37MP plus the lens quality of Leica glass are a promising and very appealing combination!

 

And the freedom to chose from a number of Leica lenses! And I hope the system will be further expanded once it is established.

 

So long term efinitely more than 4 lenses I would buy

[xjr]

They will sell it between 7000 to 8000 euros.