The R Is Completely Dead IMO

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The only way to escape those ugly evfs won't be to do film again hopefully.

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[peterv]

I just realised that you may be referring to an M8, Alan. In which case I can understand it would not be too technically difficult to install such an EVF. Why anyone would want to is another matter. But, if you're talking about an MP or M7, you're dealing in pure fantasy.

 

Is this what you have in mind?

 

That's not an EVF, that's a LCD. Funny.

It'll look more like the 21/24/28 finder. (I hope)

IMO Alan is on the right track here.

[marknorton]

The R that doesn't make economic sense is the R9. You know that's what they are talking about, as well as everyone else.

 

My reading of Leica's announcement is that it's not just the R9 which doesn't make economic sense, it's the entire R product line. The web-site now says "Whilst no longer in production, the LEICA R reflex camera system..."

 

As if to emphasize that the R system is no more, they have off-loaded all the remaining R inventory to turn it into cash. Hopefully, they will retain the ability to fix the cameras, for example, install new metering cells, and CLA the lenses. For those dedicated users, the R will continue to deliver just as it has always done.

 

I think it's unrealistic to expect the R system to rise like a phoenix from the ashes with the announcement of the camera previously known as the R10. Much more likely, IMHO, to be a cropped S and Leica must be looking at what they can take out of the S and its lenses to lower the cost, even to EOS 1dS III/D3x levels.

 

It's a pity though that all that lens IP will now go to waste unless some of it can be salvaged to produce a line of cropped lenses on an S2 mount. It will be interesting to see what, if any, use of existing R lenses can be made on a future camera.

[stevelap]

........Much more likely, IMHO, to be a cropped S and Leica must be looking at what they can take out of the S and its lenses to lower the cost........

 

Nothing new here Mark, Leica have said as much themselves. It's been obvious for a while that the 'R10', or whatever, will be an AF camera, most likely utilising a scaled S2 sensor and adapted mount, together with a version of the Maestro processor etc, etc. That use of legacy 'R' lenses on such a camera will require an adaptor has also been evident for some time.

 

As to the new models name, well until Leica say so I still wouldn't rule out 'R10'. However anything is possible, including a link to the S series (how about Doug's favourite 'SL', as in 'S Lite', harking back to a much loved past but also firmly linked to the future). Perhaps we should open a book? If so 'R10' ought to be at least evens at the moment.

[AlanG]

I just realised that you may be referring to an M8, Alan. In which case I can understand it would not be too technically difficult to install such an EVF. Why anyone would want to is another matter. But, if you're talking about an MP or M7, you're dealing in pure fantasy.

 

Is this what you have in mind?

 

Why would anyone want to? - I gave a pretty long list of reasons. Did you read them by any chance? Why not state why you don't like them rather than be flipant?

 

MP, M7?? It never crossed my mind that even Leica would be planning a new film camera. Of course it would be fantasy. You need an image sensor to supply the video to the EVF. Maybe you have a hybrid design idea that nobody thought of.

 

A clip on EVF could probably be about an inch square. Or even smaller if necessary - about the same size as a clip on optical finder. You'd hardly notice it. I have a 4-5 year old Konica Minolta A2 and its 1 megapixel EVF is very small. It tilts up which is handy for low shots. The little Ricoh Caplio GX100 and GX200 have had a clip on one for a while. I'm not inventing this out of thin air. It costs about $140.00

 

Ricoh Caplio GX100 with Removable Electronic Viewfinder

 

You may not see the benefit of hi def video capability but some people do. Look at what this company is offering for the 5DII and D90. This will be another market that Leica will be missing out on - and the possibility for accesory sales that go with it.

 

http://redrockmicro.com/redrock_dslr.html

 

Live view and hi def video for high end dslrs is what one might consider to be disruptive technology.

 

And if you think I'm being futuristic here, I'm not. I know very little and what I do know is limited to what is here now. It is probably a year or two behind the times already.

[AlanG]

Zigview Live for Cameras With Live View Wokingham Photographic the Accessory Specialist

 

Next someone just needs to make a small clip-on EVF.

[andybarton]

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Zigview Live for Cameras With Live View Wokingham Photographic the Accessory Specialist

 

Next someone just needs to make a small clip-on EVF.

 

Are we talking a separate, battery powered EVF? The same quality as a V-Lux 1 maybe? Would that be OK with you? Seriously?

 

What is it about "M users won't use EVFs" that you don't get? What is it about "R-users won't use EVFs" that you don't get?

 

EVFs are not for real Leica users. Get over it.

[andybarton]

Zigview Live for Cameras With Live View Wokingham Photographic the Accessory Specialist

.

 

Read the "Interval Shooting" section of this web page. Is this the "M" way? Do you honestly think this is an attractive proposition for the users of M cameras? Or R cameras?

 

I don't.

[AlanG]

What is it about "M users won't use EVFs" that you don't get? What is it about "R-users won't use EVFs" that you don't get?

 

 

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I'm not talking about M users. And it looks like that might be the best option that Leica may offer to R users. (I am not saying that I like it.) I am absolutely convinced that not a single M user will buy one!

 

I am saying that if Leica wants to have any shot at being competitive in the future, it will need to incorporate features that will be in demand in the future not those that were in demand in the past. If Leica wants to restrict itself only to those who want to shoot still photos quickly with a hand held camera and a limited number of lenses in a limited number of circumstances, then they will be limiting their possibility of sticking around to make M camera for all of those who hate these modern gizmos. People will learn to use EVFs and live view. Entire major Hollyood movies are shot by camera operators who look at an LCD while using a Steadycam.

 

Rangefinders and optical finders are not the only methods anymore. What is it about this that you don't get?

[andybarton]

Do you need encouragement?

 

So, you want Leica to go with the lowest common denominator, do you?

 

Do you understand nothing about what makes Leica, Leica?

 

I have made reference to both M and R cameras. You seem to be ignoring both. What DO you want Leica to make in the future? Some sort of m4/3 camera with no mirror, so as to avoid camera shake you get in your Canons and Nikons?

 

Hello. They already make cameras with no mirrors, and have done since around 1925.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Regarding :

 

"The R Is Completely Dead IMO"

 

Maybe R film cameras are but I hope there is still a place for "R" lenses in a future Leica full frame digital camera ... and if so will be able to say ... in the words of Mark Twain:

 

"Reports of my death are an exaggeration."

 

R lenses are just too good to bury and forget ...

 

Cheers

 

dunk

[andybarton]

IMHO, Leica reflex cameras are not dead. They may, in fact, be the future of the brand.

[AlanG]

Read the "Interval Shooting" section of this web page. Is this the "M" way? Do you honestly think this is an attractive proposition for the users of M cameras? Or R cameras?

 

I don't.

 

Why not?

 

20 years ago I set up a Nikon with a 250 exposure back mounted it overlooking the Washington Convention Center and triggered it with a home made intervalometer. The ad agency made a TV commercial from it.

 

Bruce Dale, one of the most accomplished and acclaimed photographers in the world, mounted (I believe two) camera(s) on the outside of an airplane for National Geographic. I think he used Olympus. I am not sure if a Leica R or M would have given him the control he needed. (I think he used auto exposure as I don't think it was possible to change the exposure controls.) But what R or M shooter would want to take a picture like this anyway? Mr. Dale started out in his career using Leicas but for some reason, switched to Nikons. His son invented the Dale Beam. Another device you wouldn't approve of.

 

Bruce Dale | Selected photos

 

My buddy, Peter B. sticks camera, on poles and does all kinds of remote shooting. He is quite famous for it.

 

Peter B. Kaplan: In High Places

 

Here are links to two famous photos taken with remote cameras:

 

Neil Leifer's

http://216.117.181.169/picture.php?pict=1102&page=1

 

Bianca Lavies'

http://photography.nationalgeographic.com/photography/photos/pod-leap-day/flying-armadillo_pod_image.html

 

A lot of wildlife photography is done with remote cameras. It is just another tool to help in the creative process. Then there is Harold Edgerton...

[redbaron]

"If Leica wants to have any shot at being competitive in the future, it will need to incorporate features that will be in demand in the future not those that were in demand in the past."

 

Therefore Leica MUST work with Apple on this one. It knows whether you're in portrait or landscape mode and can allow the M8 to shoot wirelessly tethered. Come on Leica! Lift your game!

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[AlanG]

Do you need encouragement?

 

So, you want Leica to go with the lowest common denominator, do you?

 

Do you understand nothing about what makes Leica, Leica?

 

 

No I want them to make cameras with the maximum versatility. I have no idea what makes a Leica a Leica. Can you tell me? Is it the special sauce? I think they are simply devices for taking photographs. Are they more than that?

 

This is from Bruce Dale's web site and may give you insight as to why Leica fell out of favor with a number of pros: (He's had over 2,000 photos published in National Geographic.)

 

Over the years my equipment has gotten better. When I signed on with the Geographic, I was told I could have anything within reason and one thing not within reason. I was using Leica cameras at the Toledo Blade newspaper where I had been working and wanted to continue with them. Bud Wisherd, who was in charge of the equipment at that time, gave me a Nikon F which he suggested I try. I took it and used it primarily for close-ups and extra long lens shots. Eventually I had two systems. Nikons got better. I vividly recall a row of engineers from Nikon sitting and taking notes about what we liked and didn't like about their cameras. We'd make a comment such as "the rewind lever is too sharp and cuts our finger." A year later, the new model came out with a broader rewind lever with the end covered with plastic. The engineers would be back and would ask, "Here is our new camera, how you like it?" And year after year, the cameras would improve. Nikon's competitors brought their new models too but with the attitude, "Here is our new camera, you will like it."

 

Full text:

http://www.brucedale.com/equipment/

[AlanG]

 

Therefore Leica MUST work with Apple on this one. It knows whether you're in portrait or landscape mode and can allow the M8 to shoot wirelessly tethered. Come on Leica! Lift your game!

 

At this point, when news breaks, it is more likely to be recorded on an iPhone than on a Leica. Very astute of you to understand this.

 

Way back when did you know what you could do with a computer or why you'd want one?

[sdai]

You guys are pretty close already ... if Leica could persuade Steve Jobs to license the red dot for the iPhone camera, they can probably make 100 times more money than they could ever do with the M9, S2, and a R10 all combined. LOL

[adan]

Alan G., Andy B.

 

For Pete's sake, guys.

 

Here are some pictures. I think they are pretty nice pictures. They do not fit the "mold" of what makes Leicas Leicas (or at least Ms Ms) - but they were made with an M8 nonetheless.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/other/81701-m8-studio.html

 

And they were made with the M8 as it stands - no live view needed. In fact, while I can see where live view might be useful in the studio, I also found it very liberating to just hand-hold the camera to my eye, so that I could move around the subject, or climb a stepstool, and change the lighting or composition very quickly and comfortably, with the camera tight against my face and not held at arms length or on a tripod.

 

So:

 

Andy B. I think you might want to open your mind a bit as to what constitutes "M" photography or "Leica" photography. They are boxes with lenses on one side and film or a sensor on the other, and they can - and should - be used to do anything the photographer is capable of doing with them.

 

AlanG. I think you might want to give a bit more value to the idea that - while technological thingies no doubt can expand a photographer's capabilities - the photographer him/herself can expand her own capabilites - i.e., learn - precisely by skipping the technology, and depending on her own intellectual resources rather than those of the Canon/Panasonic/Sony engineers.

 

Rodney Dangerfield can buy technology to help him get the ball in the hole every time (Caddyshack). Tiger Woods depends on skill and a pretty basic stick with a lump on the end - and rarely scores a hole in one. Who's the better golfer?

 

We have two threads now cluttered up with endless pro-live-view and anti-live-view point-scoring. Let's give it a rest.

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[AlanG]

I have made reference to both M and R cameras. You seem to be ignoring both. What DO you want Leica to make in the future? Some sort of m4/3 camera with no mirror, so as to avoid camera shake you get in your Canons and Nikons?

 

Hello. They already make cameras with no mirrors, and have done since around 1925.

 

This is what I wrote, "There is another problem that live view and EVFs will cause Leica. Those cameras will not have the noise and vibration of a moving mirror, taking away a rangefinder advantage." Yes Leica M's do not have a moving mirror. Once other brands of cameras no longer have a moving mirror, two of the reasons for using a Leica M (less noise and less vibration) will be gone.

 

I think I pretty clearly expressed what I'd like to see Leica produce. But even if they only made a camera identical to an M8.2 but added live view and electrical contacts on top for a state of the art clip on EVF (not separately powered,) it would instantly and economically expand the versatility of the M system allowing it to also use R and other lenses. If they are really slick, they'll link to the R auto-diaphragm.

 

For a small company that just discontinued its 35mm reflex system and is working on a larger than 35mm digital system with AF (pretty nontraditional for Leica isn't it?) can you really expect them to also make an entirely new 35mm reflex system any time soon? Oh and the economy is bad too. The M8.2 with live view may offer a stop gap solution for R lens owners.

 

I'm not saying that even today's best EVF will be ideal for all applications. You can always wait and hope they offer a better way to use the R lenses on a new digital body. That doesn't look too likely from where I'm sitting in a lotus position reading my tea leaves. If they are working on a new 35mm digital system, I bet it will include a lot of the bells and whistles that people are complaining about - whether it is reflex or EVF.

 

I find live view to be a better way to precisely line up my architectural photos than using the slr finder. I wear glasses and it is hard to see all of the edges of the frame simultaneously through it. When shooting in awkward positions, my bad neck can make it painful and difficult to get my head in position so that my eye can see through the viewfinder.

[AlanG]

AlanG. I think you might want to give a bit more value to the idea that - while technological thingies no doubt can expand a photographer's capabilities - the photographer him/herself can expand her own capabilites - i.e., learn - precisely by skipping the technology, and depending on her own intellectual resources rather than those of the Canon/Panasonic/Sony engineers.

 

Thank you, but I keep coming back to photography having always been an advancing technological medium. At least from the camera manufacturer's perspective if not from the perspective of all photographers. I worked with view cameras for more than 30 years so I am pretty familiar with depending on my own skills, vision and creativity using a less technologically advanced tool. My intellectual resources are long gone so I need help with that one. But my own capabilities don't let me see what I'm shooting when I hold a DSLR over my head. I need an old Rolleiflex, Hasselblad or tilting LCD for that. So does an M user.

 

I have nothing against Andy and I bet his views represent a lot of Leica users. I don't know if that perspective is broad enough so that Leica can plan around it and thrive in the future. Apparently it wasn't broad enough to keep the R system going.