AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #21 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) And still, this is most of the development that is needed for the R10. A sleek body and the mechanicals and optics? Leica can do that with one hand tied behind their back. That is simply a transposition of the R9. The integration with the electronic part - that takes work and time. That will be a continuous process for all camera makers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 25, 2009 Posted March 25, 2009 Hi AlanG, Take a look here The R Is Completely Dead IMO . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
stunsworth Posted March 25, 2009 Share #22 Posted March 25, 2009 Photography has always been about advances in technology but that doesn't mean that you are compelled to change. Indeed, and I'd guess that there are _far_ more Leica M users shooting film than using M8s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #23 Posted March 25, 2009 Indeed, and I'd guess that there are _far_ more Leica M users shooting film than using M8s. But Leica can keep making current film Ms for as long as there still is a market for them. I doubt if they will ever develop a new film camera. Film use has declined enough that a number of camera manufactures have gone out of business. I believe the decline of sales of film Ms was a contributing factor in the introduction of the M8. They saw that their future required a presence in a growing market. As tough as it may be to compete in it. Photographers can keep using their old stuff, and it benefits film and processing companies, but camera manufacturers are in business to sell new stuff. So they often have to develop new products that are appealing enough to get people to stop using the old gear. If Leica doesn't keep updating the digital M, people will just stick to their old M8s and M8.2 models. Plus it may not attract many new users if it is perceived as having "dated" features. I don't know if Gandolfi or Morgan cars are really thriving businesses, but for a company with 1,000+ employees, Leica has a responsibility to stay abreast of technology and chart a viable future. Unfortunately, I suspect that the world's economic crisis has forced them to tear up the S2 business model. I hope they are a lot smarter than I am because I am busy just trying to plot my own course through this mess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 25, 2009 Share #24 Posted March 25, 2009 ...but camera manufacturers are in business to sell new stuff. So they often have to develop new products that are appealing enough to get people to stop using the old gear. Indeed they do have to sell new stuff. But what makes Leica different from many other manufacturers is that they only introduce a new model when they have something new to say, not every year or so to entice gullible punters with models that hardly differ from their old, and now outdated, model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 25, 2009 Share #25 Posted March 25, 2009 It's now up on the English web-site: 24/03/2009 For more than 40 years the Leica R-System has played an important role within the Leica product portfolio. However new camera developments have significantly affected the sales of Leica R cameras and lenses resulting in a dramatic decrease in the number sold. Sadly therefore there is no longer an economic basis on which to keep the Leica R-System in the Leica production programme. At the beginning of March 2009 authorised Leica photo dealers were informed by Leica Camera AG that the production of the SLR camera, Leica R 9 as well as R-lenses would therefore be discontinued. In due course the technical innovations derived from the newly developed professional system SLR camera Leica S 2 will, we believe, generate a basis for new system solutions for the future. We will obviously keep you informed of these developments at the appropriate time. Leica R-system products are still available at some authorised Leica dealers and in addition a significant second-hand trade confirms the continued use of Leica R products, therefore, the information regarding the Leica R system will continue to be available on our web site . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 25, 2009 Share #26 Posted March 25, 2009 Indeed, and I'd guess that there are _far_ more Leica M users shooting film than using M8s. Given that the M8 has been available for 2.5 years and the film Ms have been available for 55 years, one would hope so. Although I'm not one of them. "This 55-year-old man is much taller than that 30-month-old toddler" True today. But in 20 years? Digital camera sales in 2000 = 18% of the market Digital camera sales in 2005 = 92% or the market Imagine you are Rudolph Spiller. Dr. Kaufmann has just hired you to run Leica. You have, say, 25 million Euros of ACM's money to play with. The only strictures are: a) You must spend it to make and/or sell cameras and lenses (including development costs), and Dr. Kauffman wants it all earned back within 5 years, plus some profit. What's your business plan, and does it involve film cameras? ----------------------------- [by odd coincidence, I turned 55 Monday. I expect digital camera sales to reach 99.9% of the market in my lifetime. I hope Leica and M-mount rangefinders (as newly made products, not antiques) long outlive me.] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #27 Posted March 25, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Indeed they do have to sell new stuff. But what makes Leica different from many other manufacturers is that they only introduce a new model when they have something new to say, not every year or so to entice gullible punters with models that hardly differ from their old, and now outdated, model. This makes me laugh. What did Leica have to say when they came out with the Safari model and other special editions? "We want your money?" You are not giving people much credit for thinking are you? Nobody forces them to get rid of the old and buy the new. They have to justify it in some way. Few make the most out of any camera. I wonder how many Leica users really have a need to be shooting the photos they shoot with a Leica? How many really need a Noctilux to go along with their other 50mm lenses? So Leica is doing the same thing in its own more expensive way by targeting a market that will buy an $11,000 lens. Their goal is to find a way to separate you from as much money as possible just as it is for every other business. Your only alternative is to buy used gear and repair it when it breaks. There is a big difference between selling $5,000 cameras with $3,000 lenses and the competition in the high volume lower end models. With pro cameras, most people think before they get rid of the 1DsII for the 1DsIII, or the Nikon D2X for the D3X. They can see if the features are beneficial. Besides, if you are a heavy duty pro user, you might want new bodies every few years even if they stayed the same - just for the enhanced reliability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 25, 2009 Share #28 Posted March 25, 2009 The $64k question is where this leaves R lenses. Forget what Leica have said about an R10, the world is a very different place from even 6 months ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 25, 2009 Share #29 Posted March 25, 2009 You are not giving people much credit for thinking are you? Nobody forces them to get rid of the old and buy the new I guess I'm not, but it's the business model that the big boys use, and it works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted March 25, 2009 Share #30 Posted March 25, 2009 I guess I'm not, but it's the business model that the big boys use, and it works. Leica has been able to target its products in such a way that you feel special for using them. You think of them as a different kind of company. Every company tries for brand allegiance. They just go about it in different ways. If people felt that they were being cheated when they upgraded, they wouldn't do it. Likewise, they probably feel it is insane to spend $8,000 for a camera and a lens. So Leica makes many thousands of dollars off selling you one camera and a few lenses. Whereas the other brands might have to sell the same person a couple of cameras just to make a few hundred dollars. What is a punter again? You may need to re-evaluate to determine if you actually are somehow above it all. It often comes down to wants vs. needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 25, 2009 Share #31 Posted March 25, 2009 The $64k question is where this leaves R lenses. Forget what Leica have said about an R10, the world is a very different place from even 6 months ago. Which R lenses? The ones people already own: The short answer (1): Shoot film The short answer (2): Canon 5D + adapter The short answer (3): Find a DMR fast The long answer: I expect that if Leica makes a smaller S2 (S2jr.) with roughly a 24 x 36 sensor, that there will probably be a way to fit R lenses on it. However, I doubt that Leica will compromise the design in favor of the R lenses. It will be the lens users who accept compromise, in the form of minimal access to some features and exposure modes. However, I think Leica is MASSIVELY non-committal in their phrasing here: "In due course the technical innovations derived from the newly developed professional system SLR camera Leica S2 will, we believe, generate a basis for new system solutions for the future." "New system solutions for the future" does not sound anything like "new system solutions designed to keep the owners of 40-year-old lenses happy". If Leica had announce the end of M manufacturing, "and in due course...we believe..." - I would assume the M8 was IT as far as M-mount lenses were concerned - and then keep happily using my M8s until they became unrepairable. (At least we would be spared the M9 speculation threads) The designs in Leica's portfolio: If Leica eventually creates an R-sized digital SLR, then I expect they will recycle some of the R lens designs if they are compatable with AF: they either already have light internal focusing (180 APO-Elmarit), or they just don't need much movement to focus (the wideangles). Maybe the interchangeable-head 280/400/560 system would survive with AF rear sections. Some are still state-of-the-art optics, if they can handle a new mount. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 25, 2009 Share #32 Posted March 25, 2009 GOOD NEWS !!!! I've just checked and my R camera and lenses are all still perfectly fine. The R is dead, long live the R!!! And now for something completely different......... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 25, 2009 Share #33 Posted March 25, 2009 James: Of course they are! Enjoy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 25, 2009 Share #34 Posted March 25, 2009 What is it about "the R10 is coming next year" that people find hard to understand? And how any sane person can claim that an EVF is in anyway an acceptable substitute for a real viewfinder (whether M or R) beggars belief Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted March 25, 2009 Share #35 Posted March 25, 2009 What is it about "the R10 is coming next year" that people find hard to understand? It's really about people's wishful thinkings IMO. I for one, have never heard/read from anywhere that Leica has given any firm word on the R10 through its official channel. Instead, when being ask about a successor to the R9 in the LFI interview, Dr. Kaufmann says we'll have to "wait and see". Big deal ... perhaps it's time to take some pictures for my R lenses and put them on eBay, I'll probably keep 2 or 3 of them, the rests can be an exchange for a 21 Summilux with some other stuff or even the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 25, 2009 Share #36 Posted March 25, 2009 Please do. I'm picking them up cheaply, before prices skyrocket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
miami91 Posted March 25, 2009 Share #37 Posted March 25, 2009 It's really about people's wishful thinkings IMO. I for one, have never heard/read from anywhere that Leica has given any firm word on the R10 through its official channel. Instead, when being ask about a successor to the R9 in the LFI interview, Dr. Kaufmann says we'll have to "wait and see". Big deal ... perhaps it's time to take some pictures for my R lenses and put them on eBay, I'll probably keep 2 or 3 of them, the rests can be an exchange for a 21 Summilux with some other stuff or even the S2. No Simon, its more than just an offhand comment from Dr. Kaufmann. There was an extensive television interview with Maike Harberts (sp?) from photokina last year, linked in several threads on this forum, where she states in no uncertain terms that the R10 is in active development. Doesn't mean that the plug cant' be pulled at any time of course, but this isn't merely a figment of our imaginations. Jeff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted March 25, 2009 Share #38 Posted March 25, 2009 Please do. I'm picking them up cheaply, before prices skyrocket. Dream on ... Jaap. If they're going to skyrocket then SHphoto has no need to dump brand new R stuff at a hefty discount. Keep up your propaganda, folks, so I can sell my gears for a good price, they are all in pristine condition, many of them have only be mounted on the camera for once or twice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 25, 2009 Share #39 Posted March 25, 2009 Shakes head.... Why did you buy them, then? Don't tell me for investment purposes Your negative thoughts re the R10 are legendary on this forum. I look forward to your thoughts when it arrives next year Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted March 25, 2009 Share #40 Posted March 25, 2009 No Simon, its more than just an offhand comment from Dr. Kaufmann. There was an extensive television interview with Maike Harberts (sp?) from photokina last year, linked in several threads on this forum, where she states in no uncertain terms that the R10 is in active development. Doesn't mean that the plug cant' be pulled at any time of course, but this isn't merely a figment of our imaginations. Jeff. Jeff, the quoted words from Dr. Kaufmann was said long AFTER the interview with Harberts. There're forum members telling that Harberts herself has been transferred "back" to the S2 project. Of course, if they can pull off a S2, the "R10" should be a piece of cake but, they've just said in the announcement that a R no longer makes any economic sense. Leica has long planned for the mount change and adoption of auto focus, I don't remember the exact time when I heard about it first but for sure it was before Steven K Lee became their last CEO, that's why I jumped on this board in hope that Leica could hear us saying something. Never mind, it's just a camera anyways. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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