sclamb Posted March 12, 2009 Share #1 Posted March 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am trying to decide between the Zeiss and Leica 18mm lenses. I spoke to a dealer that has the Zeiss lens in stock and he said that it does not need to be coded. I asked about coding as I would intend to get it coded as the SE 18mm. The dealer is a big Leica dealer too, and he said that Leica overplay the coding a lot. If I get the Zeiss, do not code it but use the UV/IR filter (setting the M8.2 to 'Coded + UV/IR') will the colour corrections work or does the camera need to know it is an 18mm attached for the corrections to work properly? I guess that question brings me to another. If I shoot in raw, does the coding make a difference to the raw data in terms of vignetting and colour cast corrections? I can understand that a JPEG out of the camera would be processed, but does the lens coding 'pre-process' the raw data, or does it provide additional information for the raw converter, such as C1, to use to adjust vignetting and the colour shifts caused by the UV/IR filter (and relative to the lens used)? Last question! If I go out with my Leica 24mm and the Zeiss 18mm, would I see a difference in the pictures? I have heard that the Zeiss lenses are cooler than the Leica lenses. I am trying to understand if I would need to process one set of pictures slightly more to get them to match up across both lenses. My last concern is that if I code the Zeiss lens then I invalidate the warranty. That and the MTFs of the Leica 18mm looking better may make the Leica worth twice the price?!?!? Thanks. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 12, 2009 Posted March 12, 2009 Hi sclamb, Take a look here Leica SE 18mm vs Zeiss ZM 18mm - code or not?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
akiralx Posted March 12, 2009 Share #2 Posted March 12, 2009 I think the dealer is being a bit disingenuous, an 18mm lens should be coded, though I have shot my uncoded Zeiss 21mm f/4.5 successfully. The camera would need to know the FL to correct successfully. I have three Zeiss lenses and find them to have a slightly nostalgic saturated look - but they are all C lenses (for Classic and Compact) which have a specific signature not shared by others in the range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 12, 2009 Share #3 Posted March 12, 2009 Hmmm.. I think that dealer was trying to sell regardless. Of course it does not need to be coded - if you shoot exclusively B&W, use Cornerfix or are prepared to put up with cyan corners. But most of use mere mortals have to go through the hassle of coding - which, of course, the Leica lens incorporates. And in answer to your question: No, Leica does not overplay the need to code, rather the opposite. You only need to read the Internet hullabuloo late 2006 when they did not immediately inform the users of the facts of IR. And yes, the corrections are applied to RAW before output. Zeiss lenses are excellent, in some cases even better that the more expensive Leica offerings (2.8 Biogon 28 for instance). But the Leica 18 mm looks like it is going to be one of those legendary ones. I would go for Leica. But that is just me.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share #4 Posted March 12, 2009 Thanks Alex & Jaap I think given the fact that coding the Zeiss is necessary and would invalidate any warranty, and I like the warranty and passport offering of Leica, and the fact that the MTFs look excellent for the Leica 18mm (and the Leica looks better on paper than the Zeiss in that regard), I may stick with the Leica order I have made. Thanks again. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted March 12, 2009 Share #5 Posted March 12, 2009 The Zeiss ZM 18 is an outstanding lens, and if the Leica 18mm turns out to be "better", which it might, it is quite possible that the differences might only be evident in rigorous tests rather than in real world photographs. The MTF curves alone are not sufficient to make a decision on which lens to buy. It is also relevant that in the US the ZM18 costs only US$1,100, which is almost 1/rd of the price of the new Leica lens. As for coding, for colour accuracy it is better to code; but for some photographers letteing the colours fall where they may is not a problem. You can try shooting with it uncoded and see whether it's appropriate for your photography and decide later. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sreidvt Posted March 12, 2009 Share #6 Posted March 12, 2009 I am trying to decide between the Zeiss and Leica 18mm lenses. I spoke to a dealer that has the Zeiss lens in stock and he said that it does not need to be coded. I asked about coding as I would intend to get it coded as the SE 18mm. The dealer is a big Leica dealer too, and he said that Leica overplay the coding a lot. If you'll forgive my frankness, that dealer claim is nonsense (with respect to 35 - 40 mm and wider lenses). If one uses IR-cut filters on these lenses then he or she will either need to code them or process the files using Cornerfix (unless one actually likes the cyan drift effect). The easiest (and probably best) way to code a Zeiss 18 is by using the replacement (milled) mount from John Milich. But, you're right that changing the lens bayonet would violate one's warranty. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sreidvt Posted March 12, 2009 Share #7 Posted March 12, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Zeiss ZM 18 is an outstanding lens, and if the Leica 18mm turns out to be "better", which it might, it is quite possible that the differences might only be evident in rigorous tests rather than in real world photographs. The MTF curves alone are not sufficient to make a decision on which lens to buy. It is also relevant that in the US the ZM18 costs only US$1,100, which is almost 1/rd of the price of the new Leica lens. As for coding, for colour accuracy it is better to code; but for some photographers letteing the colours fall where they may is not a problem. You can try shooting with it uncoded and see whether it's appropriate for your photography and decide later. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Hi Mitch, I agree with this with one exception. The two lenses may end up drawing somewhat differently and we may be able to see that in many kinds of pictures. But the Zeiss is superb and the Leica probably is as well. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share #8 Posted March 12, 2009 The Zeiss ZM 18 is an outstanding lens, and if the Leica 18mm turns out to be "better", which it might, it is quite possible that the differences might only be evident in rigorous tests rather than in real world photographs. The MTF curves alone are not sufficient to make a decision on which lens to buy. It is also relevant that in the US the ZM18 costs only US$1,100, which is almost 1/rd of the price of the new Leica lens. As for coding, for colour accuracy it is better to code; but for some photographers letteing the colours fall where they may is not a problem. You can try shooting with it uncoded and see whether it's appropriate for your photography and decide later. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Thanks Mitch. The price difference is different in the UK, with the Leica being slightly less than twice the price rather than three times. The only issue I see using it uncoded and then deciding if I want it coded is that, if I do want the coding done, I no longer have any warranty on the lens. That said, I have never had to return a lens for a warranty issue, but there is always a first time. I agree about not reading too much into MTF graphs, but without having seem any Leica vs Zeiss 18mm comparisons it is arguably the best starting point in the decision process. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted March 12, 2009 Share #9 Posted March 12, 2009 Simon, yes, Leica lenses are cheaper in the UK and the Zeiss lens is cheaper in the States. In January I bought the Summicorn-28 from the UK, which, ex-VAT, was about US$1,000 cheaper than in the States — a compelling price difference. On the other hand, the Zeiss is substantially cheaper in the States than in the UK, but I don't know how it works out after you tack VAT on to it... Sean, it will be interesting to see your test of the Leica 18mm. —Mitch/Potomac, MD Flickr: Mitch Alland's Photostream Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted March 12, 2009 Share #10 Posted March 12, 2009 I bought my Zeiss 18mm used and then switched out for a Milich bayonet so the warranty is not an issue. But honestly, this lens is so bulletproof that as long as you got a good copy out of the gate the warranty is really not a necessity in my opinion. It is really an incredible lens and as well built (hmmm, and even better than some) as any of my Leica lenses. But hey, it's your $. And I would find myself a different dealer, asap. He was lying to you to try and make a sale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share #11 Posted March 12, 2009 Hi Mitch, I agree with this with one exception. The two lenses may end up drawing somewhat differently and we may be able to see that in many kinds of pictures. But the Zeiss is superb and the Leica probably is as well. Cheers, Sean Sean Thanks for both of your replies. Any chance of a Zeiss vs Leica 18mm shootout on your site anytime soon? If the Super Elmar 18mm f/3.8 is anything like my Elmar 24mm f/3.8, it will be very special indeed. I just read your initial review of the 24/3.8 which is absolutely what I am seeing. I love this little gem. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share #12 Posted March 12, 2009 I bought my Zeiss 18mm used and then switched out for a Milich bayonet so the warranty is not an issue. But honestly, this lens is so bulletproof that as long as you got a good copy out of the gate the warranty is really not a necessity in my opinion. It is really an incredible lens and as well built (hmmm, and even better than some) as any of my Leica lenses. But hey, it's your $. And I would find myself a different dealer, asap. He was lying to you to try and make a sale. Thanks. I don't buy my Leica equipment from this dealer, but my Leica dealer does not sell Zeiss hence why I went to this alternative. I am tempted to wait a while and see some reviews and real world pictures from the Leica 18mm before deciding, although I take your point that I probably cannot go wrong with the Zeiss 18mm. Mr Puts has a first part of his SE 18mm review up, and I am awaiting the second part, plus I hope that Sean Reid will review it as soon as possible. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfokevin Posted March 12, 2009 Share #13 Posted March 12, 2009 Hi Mitch, I agree with this with one exception. The two lenses may end up drawing somewhat differently and we may be able to see that in many kinds of pictures. But the Zeiss is superb and the Leica probably is as well. Cheers, Sean I have the Zeiss now - a sweet lens... But the new Leica makes my wallet twitch with anticipation... Yes Sean... Will we see a match up soon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted March 13, 2009 Share #14 Posted March 13, 2009 Thanks. I don't buy my Leica equipment from this dealer, but my Leica dealer does not sell Zeiss hence why I went to this alternative. I am tempted to wait a while and see some reviews and real world pictures from the Leica 18mm before deciding, although I take your point that I probably cannot go wrong with the Zeiss 18mm. Mr Puts has a first part of his SE 18mm review up, and I am awaiting the second part, plus I hope that Sean Reid will review it as soon as possible. Simon Simon, You may want to find a dealer who handles both Leica and Zeiss (and who gives good, honest advice..) hint, hint Since you're looking for samples, did you happen to check out my blog? I posted real-world pictures from the Leica 18mm SE that I took in Las Vegas. Really amazing lens. Low distortion, no flare, no ghosting, no green blobs with IR filter, sharp, sharp, and sharp. The 6-bit coding and dedicated IR filter/hood arrangement make the Leica hassle free vs. the Zeiss which will require some work on your part. The claim that 6-bit coding is unnecessary on a lens this wide is just not true... unless you will be only using it for B&W and on a film camera. Good luck with your decision, but for me... I'd choose the Leica. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sreidvt Posted March 13, 2009 Share #15 Posted March 13, 2009 Hi All, Yes, I'll be reviewing the Leica 18 (likely in April) and the Zeiss will be the comparison lens. I was very impressed with the 24/3.8 I just wrote about and imagine the 18 will be excellent. Right now, I'm shooting all day every day. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sreidvt Posted March 13, 2009 Share #16 Posted March 13, 2009 Simon, You may want to find a dealer who handles both Leica and Zeiss (and who gives good, honest advice..) hint, hint Since you're looking for samples, did you happen to check out my blog? I posted real-world pictures from the Leica 18mm SE that I took in Las Vegas. Really amazing lens. Low distortion, no flare, no ghosting, no green blobs with IR filter, sharp, sharp, and sharp. The 6-bit coding and dedicated IR filter/hood arrangement make the Leica hassle free vs. the Zeiss which will require some work on your part. The claim that 6-bit coding is unnecessary on a lens this wide is just not true... unless you will be only using it for B&W and on a film camera. Good luck with your decision, but for me... I'd choose the Leica. David David is known to run a very good business and so David's hint is certainly worth considering. Tony Rose at Popflash Photo is another one of the good guys. David, Wouldn't you want to try the two lenses side by side before reaching a decision? <G> I'm a big fan of Peter Karbe and his team too but you remember that anecdote about Einstein choosing his assistants? Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share #17 Posted March 13, 2009 Simon, You may want to find a dealer who handles both Leica and Zeiss (and who gives good, honest advice..) hint, hint Since you're looking for samples, did you happen to check out my blog? I posted real-world pictures from the Leica 18mm SE that I took in Las Vegas. Really amazing lens. Low distortion, no flare, no ghosting, no green blobs with IR filter, sharp, sharp, and sharp. The 6-bit coding and dedicated IR filter/hood arrangement make the Leica hassle free vs. the Zeiss which will require some work on your part. The claim that 6-bit coding is unnecessary on a lens this wide is just not true... unless you will be only using it for B&W and on a film camera. Good luck with your decision, but for me... I'd choose the Leica. David David Surprisingly, this is a dealer than sells both Zeiss and Leica, although they do seem to put down Leica a lot. I bought most of my lenses form them when I had my M6 (and they also sold them for me a few years back). Trouble is that whilst they have the ZM 18mm they do not have the SE 18mm, and neither does any other London dealer I have tried. Point taken and understood about the need for coding though. Thanks. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share #18 Posted March 13, 2009 Hi All, Yes, I'll be reviewing the Leica 18 (likely in April) and the Zeiss will be the comparison lens. I was very impressed with the 24/3.8 I just wrote about and imagine the 18 will be excellent. Right now, I'm shooting all day every day. Cheers, Sean In that case I may just wait until you have done so. I suspect my order for the Leica 18mm won't come through before April anyway, so I have time to change my mind if I want to. Thanks. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted March 13, 2009 Share #19 Posted March 13, 2009 In that case I may just wait until you have done so. I suspect my order for the Leica 18mm won't come through before April anyway, so I have time to change my mind if I want to. Thanks. Simon Hi Simon, I'll be shooting through the end of this month and then should be back in VT the first week of April. The Leica 18, 24/1.4 and 21/1.4 all have high priority for testing then. I'll also do the formal testing of the 24/3.8 (wonderful lens, BTW) to go with the first impressions review. Cheers, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sclamb Posted March 13, 2009 Author Share #20 Posted March 13, 2009 Sounds great Sean. Worth the subscription price just to see the reviews of these great new lenses. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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