stunsworth Posted February 23, 2009 Share #21 Posted February 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) So you think they'll make less profit ???? Err, yes, as a matter of fact I do... Shell in worst profit slump for 10 years | Business | The Observer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 23, 2009 Posted February 23, 2009 Hi stunsworth, Take a look here Leica Q3 Results. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted February 23, 2009 Share #22 Posted February 23, 2009 ... Exxon/Mobil has been posting record profits regardless of the price of crude , and regardless of the price at pump. Remember, ExxonMobil recently closed all or most of its gas stations in the US "in order to concentrate on production." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 23, 2009 Share #23 Posted February 23, 2009 Aunque vivo en Paris desde hace mas de 20 años, te recuerdo que soy de Bilbao, que voy a menudo por España y sigo la actualidad española. Los problemas en Francia no son los mismos que en España. La crisis se manifiesta de manera diferente en ambos paises. Las últimas previsiones del gobierno francés (que son las más optimistas) anuncian recesión en 2009 y 2010... Ya veremos... Venga, un abrazo. ArtZ Sí, la "burbuja inmobiliaria" y el caos político-institucional son dos grandes diferencias entre España y los países de nuestro entorno. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted February 23, 2009 Share #24 Posted February 23, 2009 I'll come back to this thread after I've checked the financials of the various manufacturers of my other purchases, washing machine, kettle, pc, tv, hi fi, shoes, car, mobile phone, vodka, ........... Unlike all of those other products, many people invest in a camera as part of a system. Thus they want to make sure it will be expanded, updated, and supported in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtZ Posted March 2, 2009 Share #25 Posted March 2, 2009 Sí, la "burbuja inmobiliaria" y el caos político-institucional son dos grandes diferencias entre España y los países de nuestro entorno. Rubén, Bad news everywhere... The PNV is having troubles after the elections (Patxi López could be our next Lehendakari!) and Christine Lagarde (Ministre de l'Economie) announced today France will be in recession in 2009 (2009 Budget was calculated on +0.5 / +1% PIB for 2009). These figures have been revised today to -1 / -1.5% (5,5% PIB public debt! Remember: 3% max authorized by Brussels) and more than 300 000 extra unemployed people in 2009 (weird figure... just in January we had 90 200 job losses) I think 600 000 - 700 000 job losses would be more realistic... Black is black... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted March 2, 2009 Share #26 Posted March 2, 2009 Leica has published its results for Q3 (ending 31 Dec 2008). Sales for the quarter are up slightly (€41m from €38m - post-Photokina effect) but sales for the first 3 quarters together are down from €127m to €93m. In the quarter, Leica spent €1.8m on R&D, down from €3.8m in the previous year. Employees are up from 1003 to 1073. Their current assets are down - less cash, more inventory on hand, more outstanding debtors. For 2008/2009 (YE 31 March), a high single digit €m loss is expected; for 2009/2010, the results are expected to be "markedly negative". Looks like Dr Kaufmann, through his investment vehicle ACD Projektentwicklung is injecting "at least" €6m into the company. There's no doubting his commitment to make this work. So, as expected, Leica is having a tough time of it in the economic climate. But then I pick up the paper and see Saab are in deep trouble, GM are holding a gun to the heads of European Governments, Pioneer are shedding 10,000 jobs. It's pretty dire everywhere. Leica and just about every other business out there. What's going to save Leica and make it one of the companies that get through to the end of this recession is that they have a few products in the pipeline nearing availability. I'm not sure how many S2s they will sell, but an R10 w/ new autofocus lenses would probably result in a lot of orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted March 2, 2009 Share #27 Posted March 2, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) With the S2 (if it ever goes on sale) Leica may be trying to launch a brilliant product at exactly the wrong time. It seems to me that more and more people are questioning the need for ultra-high resolution digital backs. There may be some publishing purposes for which a 50mp+ camera is needed, but they are so few as to be uneconomic choices for all but a vanishing few photographers. The S2 could fall right in the sweet spot for resolution -- I think Leica may have figured that correctly -- BUT, given the economic circumstances, who will buy a new, untested system from a shaky manufacturer that will cost, most likely, $30,000-$40,000 for the basics (body and 3-4 lenses)? I suspect Leica may see a disaster in the making, and that accounts for the depressing business projections. They would have been much better off, IMHO, producing a serious M9 or an R10. I have been using a Panasonic G1 for the last few days, and soon should get a Leica lens adapter from Stephen Gandy. This camera is not *the* answer -- the sensor is not so good -- but it's getting close. If Olympus this summer produces a really good m4/3, with a D3-level sensor, and if it can use Leica M lenses as the Panasonic can, this could have two effects: it could heat up the market for M lenses, and damage the prospects for an M9. It will be interesting to see what happens. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 4, 2009 Share #28 Posted March 4, 2009 Aunque vivo en Paris desde hace mas de 20 años, te recuerdo que soy de Bilbao, que voy a menudo por España y sigo la actualidad española. Los problemas en Francia no son los mismos que en España. La crisis se manifiesta de manera diferente en ambos paises. Las últimas previsiones del gobierno francés (que son las más optimistas) anuncian recesión en 2009 y 2010... Ya veremos... Venga, un abrazo. ArtZ Febrero 2009. Desempleados (inscritos en el INEM, paro registrado; otra cosa es el dato de la EPA, muy superior): 4.481.859 Personas asistiendo a cursos de formación: 252.953 Desempleados con disponibilidad limitada o con demanda de empleo específica: 167.615 Total: 3.902.427 personas. Previsión de paro del BBVA (servicio de estudios): para 2009, 18%; para 2010, 20%. Podemos hablar del déficit público previsible, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted March 4, 2009 Share #29 Posted March 4, 2009 Rubén, Bad news everywhere... The PNV is having troubles after the elections (Patxi López could be our next Lehendakari!) and Christine Lagarde (Ministre de l'Economie) announced today France will be in recession in 2009 (2009 Budget was calculated on +0.5 / +1% PIB for 2009). These figures have been revised today to -1 / -1.5% (5,5% PIB public debt! Remember: 3% max authorized by Brussels) and more than 300 000 extra unemployed people in 2009 (weird figure... just in January we had 90 200 job losses) I think 600 000 - 700 000 job losses would be more realistic... Black is black... Spain will be far over 3% of public deficit at the end of 2009. Maybe near 10%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted March 4, 2009 Share #30 Posted March 4, 2009 Peter, profits may be record; these are extremely large companies and sales are also record. But profit margin below 10% is poor by normal standards resulting from high expenses. There is really no windfall as politicians would have you believe. The ultimate solution the, if Exxon is doing so great, is to buy their stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZDavid Posted March 4, 2009 Share #31 Posted March 4, 2009 I'll come back to this thread after I've checked the financials of the various manufacturers of my other purchases, washing machine, kettle, pc, tv, hi fi, shoes, car, mobile phone, vodka, ........... Electrolux, one of the world's largest appliance-makers, reports a downturn. CEO Hans Straberg says: "In 2008, we experienced a drop in demand, which accelerated at the end of the year. Unfortunately, we see no market improvement in the short term. This is why we have taken decisive measures to prepare ourselves for a tough 2009." We are pleased with our new German-made Miele washing machine; it seems to be well put together. Like Leica, more expensive to begin with, but should last a lot longer than cheaper competitors. Shoes: A design professor said, "My father always told me he couldn't afford to buy a cheap pair of shoes." Birkenstocks go forever. So do Danish Eccos and my NZ-made McKinlays. Cars: New sales down, too. Get a well-made classic like Mercedes-Benz or BMW. Brother-in-law's old Honda Legend goes and goes. Mobile phones: Barrons reports on Nokia: "The world’s largest handset maker posted sales of 12.67 billion Euros, down 19.5% from 15.7 billion a year ago. Revenue was up 3% sequentially. On a constant currency basis, revenue was down 18% versus a year ago, and up 1% sequentially." Vodka? Wine and Spirits Daily reported in December: "Once considered invincible to economic downturns, the reigning leader in spirits is showing signs of trouble. Vodka continues to post growth, but price categories that used to grow double digits are now declining and once sought after brands are softening." Russia has created a "Vodka Ministry" and is advocating tax cuts to cheer up citizens. Add Martini and ice, stirred not shaken. So, I'd say overall Leica is doing quite well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magd0328 Posted March 4, 2009 Share #32 Posted March 4, 2009 They are spending less than EUR 2mm a quarter on R&D? That doesn't strike me as very much. I know they are a small company, but they are developing a whole new camera system (the S2) and, one would hope, working on an M9 and possibly other projects. Curious. Anyone work in industry have a feel for these numbers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gesper Posted March 5, 2009 Share #33 Posted March 5, 2009 They are really too small of a company in terms of revenue to be able to handle the level of R&D and capital investment required to compete effectively at the standards of quality and sophistication demanded of the brand, and with strong competitors like Sony, Nikon, Canon, etc. who can leverage their R&D over a huge base. Especially if Leica have to suffer through another fiasco like the M8 launch. Teaming with someone like Panasonic may be necessary for survival. It wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen, especially compared to shutting down and licensing the brand to an inferior manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 6, 2009 Share #34 Posted March 6, 2009 They are really too small of a company in terms of revenue to be able to handle the level of R&D and capital investment required to compete effectively at the standards of quality and sophistication demanded of the brand, and with strong competitors like Sony, Nikon, Canon, etc. IMHO thats a rather superficial evaluation. Leica have a market niche pretty much to themselves, and as a result they charge far more for their products. That in itself shows that their business is very different to the likes of Canon, Nikon, Sony etc as it has been since the late 1950s A few years ago, having led the digital revolution with the D1 Nikon were comprehensively overtaken by Canon. Pundits were queing up to announce the death of Nikon if they didnt release a high res DSLR asap.Yet even before the D3X finally appeared Nikon have pushed up their market share, to almost equal of the (much larger) Canon in the DSLR market. In my industry (automotive) I have heard for decades that manufacturers can only survive if they consolidate, because they need economies of scale. Now Saab and Opel are desperate to get out of GM, and size has done nothing to help Chrysler or Ford. Indeed some of the most impressive success stories in the last decade or 2 have been the mid sized companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted March 6, 2009 Share #35 Posted March 6, 2009 It will take a miracle for Leica to survive. No company can survive long with losses mounting. The S2 is not likely to be able to carry the company and it should be evident the M8 and M8.2 can't carry the company if highly discounted sales during the Christmas season did not sufficiently carry it. The R10 is just wishful thinking without even a prototype to be seen. How long after you see a prototype announced before they will be able to deliver? Six months, 9 months or 12 months. I doubt if you will see an R10 in this calendar year. What will Leica do for the holiday buying season? Discount the M8.2 even further, maybe introduce a few new lenses. A 1,000+ employees means a payroll of around $12.5M per month fully burdened. Sales were 93M for the first 9 months or about $10.44M per month. If your payroll is 12.5M per months you are eating cash at the rate of $2M per month negative cash flow. The $16.5M cash reserves (includes the $6M infusion) is good for about 8 months of operation assuming sales don't further decline and ignoring other operating expenses such as facilities, manufacturing equipment, inventory costs and sales and marketing expenses. Basically, this means in reality about 6 months of operation. In essence they have bet the company on the S2 and after that they are counting on the S2 sales to save the company. They will desperately need a product with broader market appeal if they are to survive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share #36 Posted March 6, 2009 John, I have no idea where you get the figure of $12.5m a month from, $150m a year. Their Annual Report for 2007-2008 showed people costs of €41m, $51m, $4.2m a month, so you immediately overstate your case by a factor of 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted March 6, 2009 Share #37 Posted March 6, 2009 John, I have no idea where you get the figure of $12.5m a month from, $150m a year. Their Annual Report for 2007-2008 showed people costs of €41m, $51m, $4.2m a month, so you immediately overstate your case by a factor of 3. These numbers also don't add up in a sense, Mark. $4.2 million per month divided by a thousand that will be 4200 US dollars per head per month ... I'm assuming it's pre-tax, and it's German tax, some will inevitably take more than the others, then most folks are grossly underpaid I'd say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted March 6, 2009 Share #38 Posted March 6, 2009 These numbers also don't add up in a sense, Mark. $4.2 million per month divided by a thousand that will be 4200 US dollars per head per month ... I'm assuming it's pre-tax, and it's German tax, some will inevitably take more than the others, then most folks are grossly underpaid I'd say. an average annual salary of just over 41k Eur, plenty of jobs in Germany that pay less than that. These are the people who assemble Leicas, probably not the same demographic as the people who buy Leicas.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 6, 2009 Share #39 Posted March 6, 2009 I'm assuming it's pre-tax, and it's German tax, some will inevitably take more than the others, then most folks are grossly underpaid I'd say. By my calculation that's around £35,000 per annum. I wouldn't describe that as 'grossly under paid'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share #40 Posted March 6, 2009 Don't forget too that a significicant proportion of the Leica workforce, nearly half, are in Portugal where costs will be somewhat lower, though not as low, relatively, as they once were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.