guywalder Posted February 21, 2009 Share #161 Posted February 21, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Because they are all coming out of Project AFRika err and that means?? sorry but I dont see the synergy between a fast 21 or 24mm lens and a not so fast 35mm covering a different image circle. At best I can see a rationalisation on electronics, custom chip and processing software. Thats not small beer, but its not got much to do with lenses, or bodies for that matter... Just putting a bunch of people in a room and giving them a project name doesnt generate synergies (ask Ford and Jaguar!), commonising components and application software does. But I dont see any common components or software in S2 and M lenses I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just dont understand what your saying... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 21, 2009 Posted February 21, 2009 Hi guywalder, Take a look here price of the new S2. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted February 21, 2009 Share #162 Posted February 21, 2009 "How are we going to make our fast lenses for the S2 and the R10?" "How about trying out our designs on the M line?" "Good idea. Let's make a 21 and a 24 lux" I don't know. I wasn't there. All I do know, is that AFRika has trickle down benefits for all Leica users. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted February 21, 2009 Share #163 Posted February 21, 2009 I've been told that certain technologies they have developed/introduced to manufacture/assemble the new 21/24/50 (centre elements...) are also used for the S-lenses (large lens-diameters, floating-elements and aspherical surfaces for large elements). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 21, 2009 Share #164 Posted February 21, 2009 Not so sure. What makes a wedding photographer different from a fashion photographer is the number of images required in the finished product. A finished fashion spread is 10-20 images. A finished wedding product is typically 400-800 images, sometimes more. While the S2 might have excellent resolution, the downside is the extraordinary time it would take to post-process that quantity of 37Mp files. I don't know many wedding photographers who would have appetite for that. That's one of the reasons the H3DII has no penetration at all in the wedding market. Even the 5D MkII is causing some people to outsource their post work due to time. Isn't this just a matter of computing power? Upgrading your PC/Mac costs just a fraction of the cost of the S2 system. Portability is also a driving factor. A fashion shoot may take around 8-10 hours, but most of that is setting up time. The time spent with camera in hand is probably less than 60 minutes over the day. A wedding photographer needs to be able to carry their camera, a back-up body and several lenses for up to 14 hours. Nobody wants more weight than necessary. I understand the idea behind the S-system is to get the portability of a DSLR system combined with the quality an MF sensor. And low light performance may be the biggest factor. Most wedding photographers look for excellent ISO performance in the 3200-12800 range, and not to mention a good range of ultra-fast lenses. Not sure the S2 would ever come close. Given that the 5Dii got hammered in the latest review in Naturphoto for lack of 1600+ performance, that leaves the professional wedding photographer with Nikon as his only choice. Still I do see many of them carrying cameras that are far less capable in this respect - and still getting their shots. Bottom line, if you need a light camera, never want to print larger than 24 inches and spend maybe half the day shooting in low light, then an S2 would be a strange choice. I can quite agree with that. But then, this might not be the customer that Leica had in mind when designing the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R10dreamer Posted March 23, 2009 Share #165 Posted March 23, 2009 The typical wedding client doesn't give a bit about the technical side of things. They care about how they and their family and their friends look. High ISO is the key, not high mgpxls. http://www.garydwhalen.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pascal_meheut Posted March 23, 2009 Share #166 Posted March 23, 2009 The typical wedding client doesn't give a bit about the technical side of things. They care about how they and their family and their friends look. High ISO is the key, not high mgpxls. So weeding photography started with the Canon 5D and the Nikon D3? 3/4 years ago, weeding photographers were painting indoor instead of shooting? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 23, 2009 Share #167 Posted March 23, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been a big user of Leica equipment for my work over the past 18 years, including the M8 for the past two years, and have been following the S2 story with interest. However, I'm increasingly convinced the S2 will be out of date by the time it gets to market, which in reality is unlikely before next year - by that time there is sure to be a new Canon 1Ds with their increasingly good primes, along with upgrades for PhaseOne etc. There is no questioning the quality of Leica equipment, and their commitment to producing the "best" in the digital age, but their high costs verses the benefits no longer add up. One would have thought Leica's core strengths have always been in producing small killer cameras, like the M film used to be in relation to SLRs. But times have changed, the M8 is in reality big, slow, noisy (even the quite version) and heavy compared to a lot of much cheaper but equally competent systems, and I suspect by the time the S2 gets to market, it too will be big slow and heavy - and overpriced. I am a massive fan of Leica, and do appreciate what they are trying to do, but it seems to not be working. The M8 was a brave attempt, but they got so much wrong that I've given up using it because of too many silly things (it's impossible to change monitor based settings in bright sunlight in Africa for example, even if you turn your back to the sun - just can't see the screen). I've become so paranoid about Leica's inability to think from a serious photographers point of view, that I'm sure if you change the battery in the S2, the quality settings will default to Jpeg only - it really would not surprise me. I truly hope they get the S2 right, but I'm loosing interest as are many other professionals. Everything I've seen so far has left me unimpressed. Never has there been so much written about so little - The S2 website is full of nothing - even the sample photos leave me cold - they could have been shot with a good camera phone from what I can see. If it costs more than 10K, it will be too much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted March 23, 2009 Share #168 Posted March 23, 2009 marcusperkins..man, who parked in your space today? 1. "Being out of date when it hits the market".. the only thing we can judge is what companies say they are releasing..at this date, leica's specs for the s2 make it the smallest fastest larger than 35FF camera... no other is saying they are planing to release anything like it.. 2. "their high costs don't add up"... we don't know what the S2 will cost. 3. " M8 is big, slow, noisy" .. really?.. my what sensitve ears you have..maybe a canon is your ticket.. you can shoot real fast with it..but it isn't very light.. 4. ..I too am loosing interest.. in repling to each point... while I think this is the place to express concerns, fears, paranoia, etc..I think enough is enough..you first complain there are no specifics about the camera and that it is no more than vaporware..then you complain that so much has been written about so little..if you don't want to read about others interest in the camera.. then don't.. we would all like to see more samples of what this camera will do..but to claim that leica is inept just underscores your irrational thought process here...nobody twisted your arm to buy that m8, did they? and if you are so bothered, then why not sell the noisy brick off? we live in a new photo era.. the digital era,.. you know, good bye film hello sensor.. expensive R&D. Due to economics you and I and many other "experienced" shooters may have to let leica evolve without us..sad but true. but thanks sharing your postive outlook.. makes me want to go check my retirement acct...no that will really depress me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted March 24, 2009 Share #169 Posted March 24, 2009 Hey Paul, Maybe I parked in your space. Sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted March 24, 2009 Share #170 Posted March 24, 2009 anyone who is desperately waiting for a full frame M is a victim falling for a marketing trick, you only get a larger file when shooting full frame (I guess this applies to the S2 too, did Dr. Kaufmann really say so or is it made up by LFI? ) ... but it might come eventually if market decides it's needed. We may have to wait another 2 years for the R10. Well, Kaufmann is a businessman, not an engineer. Full frame buys you bigger receptors, which means better dynamic range and less noise. It's not just maketing hype. Besides we all know what the real reasons are for the lack of FF in the M8.x and Leica has even explained that a million times in the past. If Leica waits another two years to release an R10, they should buy a shovel and start digging a hole for themselves. Didn't leica claim that the R10 was coming in 2009? I sure look forward to seeing the S2 this summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted March 24, 2009 Share #171 Posted March 24, 2009 Hey Paul, Maybe I parked in your space. Sorry. obviously someone did! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 24, 2009 Share #172 Posted March 24, 2009 . (it's impossible to change monitor based settings in bright sunlight in Africa for example, even if you turn your back to the sun - just can't see the screen). . That is a funny one - in my experience the sun is the same in Africa as anywhere else- after all we only have one copy. Maybe if you remove your sunglasses? I found (yes-inAfrica), that shading the screen with your hand with the LCD settings at "High-Brightness, High-Contrast" will make it visible. I don't know of any camera that does not struggle in these circumstances, and there are nifty after-market solutions for this. Hardly a reason to ditch the M8... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted March 24, 2009 Share #173 Posted March 24, 2009 Boy, my back is 'out', I've got the flu-bug, I feel like crap, and I still have to go work today. Sounds like more 'crying over spilled milk'. One thing is for sure (maybe) it seems likely/possible that (assuming the economy turns around) that in the future someone will make a full-sized sensor that will be cheap and then they'll be every where, in everything. The camera business is changing - fast - and Leica, Canon, and Nikon may find themselves struggling to compete with the 'new instamatic cameras' of the future. I might be way wrong with this, but how will high-end companies compete with low prices? How many people will continue to need high durability equipment and super quality optics? Prices will likely be expensive for the S2, (R10) and the highest end Canons and Nikons. But for how long will they sell? Oh well. At least I can go to work and sell Leica Ultravids, Zeiss Victory's, etc (I sell binoculars, spotting scopes, and cutlery) the pay is nothing special, but the glass is mighty fine !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 24, 2009 Share #174 Posted March 24, 2009 C'mon, Mooky, I undestand you are tired and flu-struck... but don't be so destructive: imho, until there will be people that really LIKE that their printed pics are as fine as possible, there will be someone who will make cameras for them... cameras that CAN make a better pic than a cheap P&S. And we are into the S2 subforum... until some magazines will require a certain quality for their images (ads and not) pro photog will need a certain equipment... and, just to be a little destructive by myself, a pro will continue to prefer certain cameras at least the same way as a Taxi driver prefers to have a Mercedes than an Opel... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooky Posted March 25, 2009 Share #175 Posted March 25, 2009 Agreed, Luigi. Just wondering aloud as to how much high-end technology will trickle down to average photographer folk. I for one would not like an 'average camera' over high-end quality. Perhaps I'll just want for one that is around or under $5K, with great build quality, the finest optics, and is not obsolete in 3 years. You know, like those Leicas I hear so much about!!!!!! I know the S2 will be pricey - but I can't wait to check it out, and to see what/how this technology platform/high-end camera will trickle down to the R10 and M line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 25, 2009 Share #176 Posted March 25, 2009 Agreed, Luigi. Just wondering aloud as to how much high-end technology will trickle down to average photographer folk. I for one would not like an 'average camera' over high-end quality. Perhaps I'll just want for one that is around or under $5K, with great build quality, the finest optics, and is not obsolete in 3 years. You know, like those Leicas I hear so much about!!!!!! I know the S2 will be pricey - but I can't wait to check it out, and to see what/how this technology platform/high-end camera will trickle down to the R10 and M line. ... touchè... that is a real issue, today... if I have to admit an annoyance about my M8, is that, when I used my M4 (only 2 years ago... ), no matter that it was a 40 years old camera : with its lenses and a good Velvia film, it could take pics as good as any supermodern AF-motorized-zoomed-SLR... the fear that my M8's sensor, in 5-7 years or so, could be a ridicolusly obsoleted device is undoubtly a reality in my mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 10, 2009 Share #177 Posted April 10, 2009 ...the fear that my M8's sensor, in 5-7 years or so, could be a ridiculously obsoleted device is undoubtedly a reality in my mind. I have a 5.5 year old 1Ds and do not use it any more - well maybe in an emergency or in the rain. Plus I don't think I can sell it for much. Fortunately it earned its keep in the first few months. (Vs. shooting film.) If you buy an MF camera it should be making money for you relatively quickly or else you shouldn't care about money. As now there are much less expensive alternatives that may also do the job well. Leica is going to have to come out with the camera and lens at considerably less than $15,000, since the S2 is not established in the market and early buyers will need to have faith that more lenses will be available soon - with professional support. H3DII-31 campaign The price of this makes me think that a 31 megapixel digital back alone may not be very expensive and could be used on my view camera - stitching photos by sliding the back. And Mamiya is the same price for a 28 megapixel model and $5000 more expensive for the 33. But they are giving a way a free lens: So for $15,000 you get a 28 megapixel camera and two lenses. "Available in USA only. The Mamiya DL Professional Digital Camera Systems consist of the new Mamiya 645AFD III Medium Format Camera, new Sekor AF 80mm f/2.8 D digital lens and the newly introduced Leaf Aptus-II Digital Back. In medium format digital photography, price and performance are usually at opposite ends of the digital spectrum. Normally you have to pay more – a lot more – for better quality, performance and features, certainly for the latest technology. The new Mamiya DL28 Digital Camera System totally changes that way of thinking. At a retail price of $14,999 for the DL28 and $19,999 for the DL33, the Mamiya DL Digital Camera System offers professional features and benefits that are not even available in much more expensive systems. Purchase a new Mamiya DL28 Digital Camera System from an Authorized Mamiya Digital Dealer in the USA, between December 1, 2008 and May 31, 2009 and receive your choice of either an AF 55mm f/2.8 or AF 150mm f/3.5 Lens direct from Mamiya FREE-OF-CHARGE. (Offer good in U.S.A. only)" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 10, 2009 Share #178 Posted April 10, 2009 I found this thread very interesting: IF I ONLY BOUGHT IT A YEAR LATER - Luminous Landscape Forum Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusperkins Posted April 10, 2009 Share #179 Posted April 10, 2009 Great link Alan - thanks. Definitely worth a read through, particularly if you're a professional photographer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack MacDonough Posted April 10, 2009 Share #180 Posted April 10, 2009 I look at the S2 development in the same way I look at the first Leica. Leica back then took a look at movie film and decided to develop a camera to use that medium. Today if you were going to develop a new camera, and didn't need to worry about legacy lens issues, much less legacy film size, what might you develop for a fashion photographer? Well you wouldn't want a small sensor for two reasons: first, you would want to be able to control depth of field and that argues for a larger sensor. Second, you would need plenty of resolution for handling two page spreads and posters with ease of cropping. This would lead you to developing a camera with larger than 35mm sensor. Why limit yourself to a format because that is what the cinema used to use. In the new world of digital, you no longer have to build your sensor on a film size legacy. This might lead you to the S2 size, if not the format ratio of dimensions. Fashion photographers are probably not reading this forum, so we don't have their point of view. But they do have the money to buy or rent such an instrument. So forget about arguing about the price. The Phase 65+ is twice what the S2 might be and no one on this forum complains about their pricing, or ability to survive. And so far, they are sold out. Regarding the business plan of Leica, they want to triple their revenue from a very small base. Adding an R10 and a S2 will allow for that. The synergies of development will make the tripling of revenue profitable. And while I am not a fashion photographer, as a landscape and architecture photographer I am glad they are developing the S2 because it will be ideal for my needs, and I believe it will pay off for me at a price well below a 65+ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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