sdai Posted January 4, 2009 Share #41 Posted January 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) My dealer (if you remember where I'm from then it's your guess) has no Leica camera in stock at all, film or digital, he simply marks everything as a special order, once you've put your money down, he'll get it for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 Hi sdai, Take a look here Leica fire sales coming?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LLT Posted January 4, 2009 Share #42 Posted January 4, 2009 Leica M lenses are much more useful than on just an M8. And that's the whole point of owning an M camera. Buying into the system, not just the latest iteration of the system. Well put Andy. It's so easy to get caught up in all that, but you are absolutely spot on... the lenses are much more useful and where the value is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 4, 2009 Share #43 Posted January 4, 2009 Tell me more about what happened to the dealer here as I'm eager to learn the rest of the story (as Paul Harvey would say) Allan, I assume you mean Indianapolis. That was never in my territory, so I have no idea. "Leica wants me to stock everything" is the same complaint as "I'm supposed to carry this even though there's no turn." That's a dealer's way of saying he can't sell the product and trying to make it sound as if it's the distributor's fault. Please understand, I know only my own territory, I'm not talking about your dealer, I'm speaking generally. In my experience, the rep wants to keep the dealership active, but some dealers are too much trouble to deal with in one way or another. As for Midland and Odessa, I had a Leica account in each city IIRC, and I enjoyed calling on them. They were good people. But the trip never paid from a business viewpoint. The dealer spent time explaining to a customer how he really needed a Leica; and the customer as like as not turned around and bought it from a Chicago or New York house because they were cheaper. The dealers were still on our books when I left Leica, but from a business standpoint I'm not surprised if they aren't now. Opposite example. I had an account in the Dallas/Ft Worth area whose owner came to me and said "I want to remain a Leica dealer but not stock." I said "No" and closed his account on the spot. I like him and I respect him for being honest, but in a population center of that size, with other dealers around stocking and selling the product, there would have been no point giving him access to the line. The rule is: You want the dealer to carry everything he can sell. If he can't sell it, there's no loss to his dropping it. But a dealer in Dallas or Houston won't carry as much as a dealer in NYC. And no dealer in a big city could get away with carrying as little as the dealerships in Midland and Odessa. EDIT: Oops, I see that Simon and Andy and John and others have already said all this while I was writing the reply, from the point of view of the consumer from a number of locations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted January 4, 2009 Share #44 Posted January 4, 2009 Back when I purchased my Leica CL from Cal's Camera in Newport Beach, CA they were a huge Leica dealer with a large inventory of both new and used Leicas and lenses. Today, you would be lucky to find a DLUX 4 on the shelf. ... John, I'm very sorry to hear that. One of the best Leica reps at the time I was with the company was the rep for Cal's; in addition, Cal's son was the Texas Leica rep just before I took over the territory, and I know how much respect both he and his father had for the line. I've seen a lot of change in Texas, but somehow I never imagined it happening at Cal's. Thanks for mentioning that. ... Newport Beach is a market of well-to-do consumers. If they can't sell there they have a problem.I wouldn't go that far. Selling Leica takes enthusiasm, will, knowledge and respect for the customer no matter how well off the client. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted January 4, 2009 Share #45 Posted January 4, 2009 >> Howard Great insides and thx for posting them ! Times are changing and LEICA has to make the right decisions. I hope for the best in 2009 and NOT for too many of these new pricelists ... Best Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted January 4, 2009 Share #46 Posted January 4, 2009 selling at a loss is better than not selling at all. Anyway, all rumour and hearsay. The M8 will cost chicken feed in a couple of years, like all digital cameras. Maybe there will be a slight premium due to film body users wanting a digital body, but at the end of the day $2.5k will look stratospheric in a couple of years. If anything, the population of M8s out there might just be more reliable than now! For a hobbysist waiting for an M8 I would guess that waiting at least 12 months is the thing to do. I cannot imagine the 8.2 doing well because the price is frankly insane, but hey, this is Leica, so who knows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted January 4, 2009 Share #47 Posted January 4, 2009 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica M lenses are much more useful than on just an M8. And that's the whole point of owning an M camera. Buying into the system, not just the latest iteration of the system. That is not really true for me I'm afraid. I bought my M8 and lenses. I wont be returning to film. I hope and look forward to the next M digital (not M8.2), by Leica or hopefully another manufacturer. Otherwise I'll continue with the M8 until it drops and then look somewhere else. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
like_no_other Posted January 4, 2009 Share #48 Posted January 4, 2009 selling at a loss is better than not selling at all. Anyway, all rumour and hearsay. The M8 will cost chicken feed in a couple of years, like all digital cameras. Maybe there will be a slight premium due to film body users wanting a digital body, but at the end of the day $2.5k will look stratospheric in a couple of years. If anything, the population of M8s out there might just be more reliable than now! For a hobbysist waiting for an M8 I would guess that waiting at least 12 months is the thing to do. I cannot imagine the 8.2 doing well because the price is frankly insane, but hey, this is Leica, so who knows. I don't think so. As soon as a successor of M8(.2) appears on the horizon that features improvements that address a broader customer base than the more cosmetic like changes of M8.2 the demand for used M8 and M8.2 products will rise as well as their prices. This will happen because Leica's upgrade program will be used as a steering instrument for used market prices. (1) Used product + upgrade price is cheaper than new product if the customer is happy with only getting the new core features of the new product (2) New product will sell good because it will offer new core features plus new minor features and as well because there are always customers who prefer to buy new One of these possible core features could be a new sensor. If Leica could include a sensor exchange in their upgrade program they have found a way to maintain the M system and the value of the cameras for a very long time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrid Posted January 4, 2009 Share #49 Posted January 4, 2009 For what it's worth this rumor echos a conversation I had with my dealer a few weeks ago. They are probably the biggest Leica dealer in my area and until recently only sold Leica. They now also sell other brands, because new gear from Solms simply wasn't moving. Everything from the bodies to the lenses is simply priced out of the market and he's finding it impossible to move anything, but used M8 and used analog bodies/lenses and the entry level lenses (new). Basically this fellow was quite frustrated and dare I say angry at Leica's recent pricing strategy and quality problems. He had been a dealer for many years, but Solms was making it impossible for him to run a viable business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted January 4, 2009 Share #50 Posted January 4, 2009 In the end, Porsche did put money in the trunk for the dealers and big discounts came and have remained Surely you didn't pay full sticker for yours, did you now? Actually I walked when no discount was given. A few years later when I went back to order a C4, I found out that sales of the C4 had been discontinued in North America to pave the way for the Cayenne while the C4 continued to be sold everywhere else. I walked again rather than purchase a Cayenne. (We drive Volvo XC's anyway) At this time the C4 is again offered by Porshe in North America. Guess who won't be purchasing one or any other Porsche product.-Dick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budrichard Posted January 4, 2009 Share #51 Posted January 4, 2009 A couple of last thoughts on the original Post. I have used M's for 40 + years with an inventory of M3, M6 and two M7's along with sets of both RF and ASPH lenses. I like the quiet operation of an M and the great glass. But I also don't jump on the bandwagon for new technology just because its new. I never ordered an M8 because of the DX type format and am glad I didn't. Won't purchase an M8.2 or any other Leica digital until it is FX format and proven. I firmly expected the M8 prices to drop as new Leica M digital models were introduced and expect the prices to fall even further untill give away. One only has to look at the results of other high end digital equipment to expect this. The product cycle in this day and age is very fast and to continue to generate sales and cash, one needs an almost constant stream of new products. I seriously doubt Leica can compete in this area. If the sales of non M Leica digitals and other optical equipment can support Leica, the M digital will continue. My surmise is that sales won't and the M digital is doomed. -Dick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted January 4, 2009 Share #52 Posted January 4, 2009 IMO Leica will have to continue to discount to move stock...its surely not where they want to go as there is no return back to premium pricing once that starts. The step into digital is surely a rude awakening for them as their previous value proposition of fine mechanical engineering, long value stability of the products over time, and high resell value is no longer valid, or as valid as it was. Customers will simply not pay the high prices for digital which have a perceived shorter lifetime. New sellable products for Leica and the dealer network are lower priced digi-rangefinder bodies, medium priced digi-SLR bodies and the P&S area. Unfortunately 2 of these 3 are missing and until they are there, the dealers will become more frustrated and some will understandably jump ship. Personally I have enough Leica lenses-bodies to last me a lifetime..mainly analog, as many here. If I want good digital there are some great cameras out there to fulfill this sporadic need for small money....Leica prices will fall further until they bottom out IMO. just my thoughts andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan States Posted January 4, 2009 Share #53 Posted January 4, 2009 Leica's low production volume strategy and idiotic pricing leave them at great risk in this downturn. Frankly I'm surprised the M8 has held as much value as it has considering how quickly pro grade digicams have increased in features and perceived quality. A year ago I would never have guessed that 24mp full frame would be available for under 3k this fast. Contrary to many comments on this forum, I believe the S2 will be a disaster for Leica as it goes far away from the value of their core concept: compact high quality cameras. The money and effort invested in that gamble could have be rolled into the M9 or even better the oft promised lower priced M body camera. In a down economy companies have an opportunity to do very well if they change to meet the needs of the consumer. Note that in the Great Depression, Ford made their name by creating quality products the consumer could afford, while Auburn/Duesenburg/Cord went down the toilet making the best cars nobody wanted. Retail is the worlds easiest business. Give the customer more for less and you will win. Give the customer less for more and you will lose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enboe Posted January 4, 2009 Share #54 Posted January 4, 2009 Giving the benefit of the doubt that there is a seed of truth somewhere in all of this... I do not want you to violate the trust of a dealer who asked you not to be named - let me ask a different question. If a person was looking to get a great deal on an authorized, dealer-distributed Leica item, where would YOU recommend they shop to get the best price? I have noted that Cal's in Costa Mesa has eliminated almost all Leica stock, and the Samy's Santa Ana site has also cut way back on their display. Terry's closed their doors a couple of years ago. The trend is unsettling to say the least. Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 4, 2009 Share #55 Posted January 4, 2009 I think retailers in the US have it tough because they have the overheads which some internet warehouse does not PLUS people buying there have to pay sales tax which internet shoppers, for the most part, do not. Here in the UK, you pay sales tax (VAT) whether you are shopping online or buying at a store and only those pretending it's a business purchase - and getting away with it if they are subject to a VAT inspection (going to the dentist is more fun) - can reclaim the tax. Granted, sales tax is lower than VAT here but it's still a significant sum when buying Leica stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Luis D Posted January 4, 2009 Share #56 Posted January 4, 2009 Before I bought my M8 (Febuary 2007) I was shooting 36-exp slide films what cost $10 included development. Since my M8 I have put 13,900 approximate shots, that makes to 386 films of 36-exp I did not buy and develop, for a saving of $3860. Minus from $4900 what I paid for my M8, leaves $1040. So if today I sold my M8 for $2000 I would still be ahead of $960. Even when my M8 will be worth nothing to sell, for as long as it can operate I will continue to save $10 for every 36 shots I am doing. So I do not see what is such the tragedy of the M8 depreciation. Maybe if I kept it mostly on the shelf, then I would also despair. (PS I forgot to add the cost of 4x2GB SD cards and one more battery. Sorry, another $250. Big deal. And I had already a PC and Elements so was no more expense to turn digital.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenf Posted January 4, 2009 Share #57 Posted January 4, 2009 Opposite example. I had an account in the Dallas/Ft Worth area whose owner came to me and said "I want to remain a Leica dealer but not stock." I said "No" and closed his account on the spot. I like him and I respect him for being honest, but in a population center of that size, with other dealers around stocking and selling the product, there would have been no point giving him access to the line. Howard, I'm sorry but that's the kind of attitude that kills companies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 4, 2009 Share #58 Posted January 4, 2009 I think retailers in the US have it tough because they have the overheads which some internet warehouse does not PLUS people buying there have to pay sales tax which internet shoppers, for the most part, do not. That's not true, Mark. In US and Canada, sales taxes are automatically added to billing by online retailers ... tax rates vary from one state/province to another. All other stuff such as iTunes downloads are taxed with no exceptions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 4, 2009 Share #59 Posted January 4, 2009 Back on topic, I don't think that a dealer has to heavily stock in order to maintain its dealership. Here's one example ... I'm no sure if Vistek is the largest Leica dealer in Canada but they're surely the biggest PRO dealer and they almost have nothing in stock except a few point and shooters, most stuff are marked as special orders. Leica Leica Digital Point & Shoot Cameras Digital Point & Shoots Sleek Stylish & Compact Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NB23 Posted January 4, 2009 Share #60 Posted January 4, 2009 Howard, I'm sorry but that's the kind of attitude that kills companies. Yeah, companies that are not serious about being a company. So they die, they asked for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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