SteveYork Posted October 13, 2006 Share #21 Posted October 13, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica equipment carries a somewhat different user attitude. Fifty year old M3'sseem to satisfy many. FF and more MP are available now. And for me they don't cut it. Sold my 1ds2, sold my 5D. Why? because the DMR produces an image file that I enjoy more. I don't think the M8 is going to be any less capable than the DMR regarding image quality and I anticipate both serving me well for many years. Where else can you get the marriage of glass and technology at this level of quality? gary But the question is if Leica came out with something new. All those M3 and M4 users were content because there was nothing to compete with those cameras until the MP was released in 2003. Now look at the other M cameras: When the M6ttl came out a bunch of M6s found their way onto the used market; ditto for the M7 and MP; and now the same thing will happen with the M8. Yes, Leica users will be loyal to Leic irrespective of changes by other manufacturers, but as soon as Leica upgrade their cameras, then manu of these same loyal customers will feel the need to upgrade. What do you do if, for example, 5 years from now Leica introduces an M9 with 15 megapixel; 1.2 sensor crop and a visible difference in the inage. A lot of folks are going to say "Well I got 5 years use out of my M8 and this new camera has so much more and I'm going to go ahead and get and relegate the M8 to backup status." And this is going to be what happens, because this is how the market works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Hi SteveYork, Take a look here M8 - Anticipated period of ownership. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
gtmerideth Posted October 13, 2006 Share #22 Posted October 13, 2006 Steve, I know you are right and you have defined the current marketplace. Certainly, I have followed that pattern myself. But again, 15mp, been there, FF, done that. What will convince me to relagate an M8 to backup status is better file character and quality. Until you experience DMR files don't rain on my parade. I just don't think the IQ is going to change very fast. g. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 13, 2006 Share #23 Posted October 13, 2006 I expect the M8 will have a longer life than any digital camera to date - it's joining a maturing market, is built with a long service life in mind and will likely only be made obsolete by a follow-on model from the same manufacturer. Guy has shared with us his deliberations over what lenses to buy and the 5 he's minded to buy (CV 15, 24, 35, 50, 75) together cost more than double what an M8 costs, so that is where the value retention is - the ability to use some of the best glass in the world in future models. The M8 is the ticket, the lenses are the vehicle. As some point, I expect a "better" (though I agree with Gary that "better" has more to do with file quality than pixel count) camera will come along. Some will feel compelled to upgrade, others will keep using and enjoying their M8s. The message is clear though. An M8 is a discretionary purchase. If you're worried about value retention and the product being made obsolete at some point, don't buy! As a final thought, you don't need a very fancy car to lose far more in a year from that than you will ever lose from an M8. And you can't get speeding tickets with an M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsh Posted October 13, 2006 Share #24 Posted October 13, 2006 Nicely said Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 13, 2006 Share #25 Posted October 13, 2006 Thanks Mark as I said you buy systems not camera's. I sold a few things from the DMR system but it still is a full system , tomorrow when the R10 comes out I have the lenses. Same with the M8 no matter what happens i bought into a system. I can have the lenses till my box door closes but my DMR will not be with me then. Camera's are not disposable but certainly will never out last the glass. My issue right now is buying a M system from scratch and it is not fun in the least but it is a investment. i really think the M8 has a long shelf life, for a pro we may have to buy a bigger and better but for most folks 10 Leica MPX is more than you will ever need and i have been doing it for clients for 18 months and they are not complaining at all. There is certainly more to the image than pixels alone. So please forget that mpx pixel stuff , it is marketing hype in many ways. The DMR files make outstanding large prints 20 x 30's are a cake walk for the DMR . If you need more than that go to a MF digital. I realize having the DMR and working the files for this much time has made some of my comments easy to say becuase i been there and done that and know exactly what to expect from the M8 . There is no question in my mind the M8 will produce images that will just rock your house. But please have faith in my words on this one , you will not be disapointed with the images if it is like the DMR. Honestly i would never put out 13k on a system without complete faith in it before it even gets delivered. Geez that sounded like a ad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted October 13, 2006 Share #26 Posted October 13, 2006 My issue right now is buying a M system from scratch and it is not fun in the least but it is a investment. C'mon Guy, you must be having at least a little bit of fun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted October 13, 2006 Share #27 Posted October 13, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) C'mon Guy, you must be having at least a little bit of fun... Yeah, but if he admits it, and his wife finds out, he's dead meat. Better to keep a grim face on, muttering around about how tough life is, keeping up with the competition. 8-) I just wish the damn things would get here. JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 13, 2006 Share #28 Posted October 13, 2006 LOL . Hey i may have to buy new, can't find a bargain out there. Yes John your right cannot lead on that this is exciting or anything like that. Than they would know the gig is up. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 13, 2006 Share #29 Posted October 13, 2006 Why the assumption that we each get only ONE camera, so that we have to give up the M8 (or at least stop using it) just because we eventually get an M9? I like shooting with at least 2 bodies (which is one reason to prefer the weight of an RF over an SLR) so that I can work fast with a wideangle on one body and a tele on the other. Mark's getting 2 M8's, but I'm not. I'll use my Sony R1 as "backup" until I can afford a second M body (which could be another new 8, a new 9, or a used 8 when some become available - depending on time-frame and cash-flow). So the second M will 'replace' the R1, not my original M8. More pixels per se would not entice me. A full-frame sensor would. If it comes with more pixels, that's OK. But I'd probably be just as happy with 10 million bigger pixels on a bigger sensor for additional low-light performance. Back to the original question: I expect that my M8 will stay in regular use until a) there are no replacement electronics available, and something breaks that needs one of those replacement parts. Digital parts likely go out of production faster than gears and such, but on the other hand Leica tends to give more attention to downstream support, so they might do better than the industry average. My thumbnail guess would be 8-12 years, plus however long after that it takes for something unrepairable to fail. Note that I have not mentioned "resale" value anywhere. With a digital camera, I don't expect to "resell" it, I expect to use it up, like a candy bar - or a 100,000-frame roll of film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
salvatore Posted October 13, 2006 Share #30 Posted October 13, 2006 Perhaps there won't be a M9 in 5-6 years, but if zeiss comes with a 16MP FF Ikon in 2 years??? I think 4500€ + lenses is a great amount of money if the body are going to be "old" in a pair of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted October 13, 2006 Share #31 Posted October 13, 2006 Steve,I know you are right and you have defined the current marketplace. Certainly, I have followed that pattern myself. But again, 15mp, been there, FF, done that. What will convince me to relagate an M8 to backup status is better file character and quality. Until you experience DMR files don't rain on my parade. I just don't think the IQ is going to change very fast. g. I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade. The M8 is an excellent camera, and I myself may even take the digital plunge with this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveYork Posted October 13, 2006 Share #32 Posted October 13, 2006 A good analogy with respect to buyer habits is to look at what happens when Leica introduces a new lens. The past lenses are good, and relatively expensive, and anew one has some improvement in some area and is also expensive. What happens? A large segment feel the need to replace the old with the new. True, there is a healthy segment of this population that are satisfied with the older lenses and do not feel the need to upgrade, but sometimes that's due to lens dimension or not being able to see a difference, ect. In the past, the part of the camera responsible for producung the image was the lens and not the body. The body was merely a box to let light in; the important item was the lens. With digital, the camera body has become at least as important as the lens, or more so, and this will provide added incentive to upgrade when newer and better come out. The DMR and M8 is toward the sturdy end of the spectrum given Leica's reputation. But just how sturdy can a digital camera be? I don't know. I'm viewing them as mini-computers, which, in my mind, is the best analogy. And there ain't no computer that is going to work after ten years of hard use. There are too many circuits and electronic gizmos. I find it hard to believe that digital technology has reached a leveling off. It may have matured to the point to where the current buyer says "that's good enough for me," and I believe that is a very health attitude. But you will continue to see yearly changes, whether they are actual improvements or just to stimulate sales. This may be a bad analogy, but look at the personal computer industry after 25 years and how every year change in technology is still rampant -- better, faster, stronger (sounds like superman). As an aside, a friend of mine used to work at HP and in the 90's they always new what was in the pipeline for the next 10 years or so, because they were working on the stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted October 13, 2006 Share #33 Posted October 13, 2006 I can honestly say that I have never bought a camera or lens with a view to its resale value. Neither have I bought with the intention of changing it in X years, but then film cameras don't really become outdated in the way that digital does. I want to replace my LC5, as I want a more 'useable' digital camera in my collection, but then I'm loathe to sell it - probably worth £200 at most now? - because it is an excellent portrait camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_r_smith Posted October 13, 2006 Share #34 Posted October 13, 2006 Folks Please don't get me wrong on this, I am by no means trying to dissuade anyone from buying the M8. All I am trying to do is gently debunk the notion that you will still be using one in 2016, that's all. I think that Guy has absolutely the right approach to this. You are now buying into the Leica M digital system, where the lenses are a constant, but the camera (in this instance the M8) should in truth be viewed as a digital back. The fact that you get the shutter and rangefinder thrown in is really just a bonus. If you look at it in this light, it seems fair value for a high-end digital kit - the DMR costs a bit more, the 1DS mk II more again, and Hasselblad's cheapest digital back is twice as much. What you are really doing is pre-purchasing your supply of film stock and lab processing for say three or four years ahead, until the M9 comes out (or the R10, in the case of the DMR). At that point, you have a better "film emulsion" available. So you pre-purchase your "film stock" again with the new digi-pack. From an economic point of view, or a convenience aspect, this may work out for you. If you are a pro, like Guy, it makes a great deal of sense. But make no mistake, Leica will have a business plan which ensures they stay abreast of the competition, and they will already be working on the M9. They have to, to survive in the digital world where product shelf life is measured in months rather than years. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share #35 Posted October 13, 2006 '...but then film cameras don't really become outdated in the way that digital does' Film cameras do become outdated. As soon as in-camera metering was added, all of those un-metered cameras were outdated; then there was zoom lenses; auto focus; multi-point focus; and TTL flash; and motor drives; and aspherics and then digital 4/6/8/10/17/22/39........., but none of that makes redundant an M2 with a Kodal box end advising exposure for the guy who wants to idle through the squares of Venice or the banks of the River Seine. Nobody can claim to surpass his results out of hand; and if his name was Salgado .... etc you wouldn't question the likely outcome. If my M8 can produce superb 16x12", or even 12x10" in 10 years time, it will not become redundant and perhaps it's value to the owner will be equal to that of day 1. Perhaps wearing it out would cause it to be replaced, or FF/DR or terribly high noise-free ISO will cause it to upgraded as that would extend it's use. Mine may become a second DMS (Digital M Series) camera, but I'm anticipating a long life from it. IMO, Leica M is the Harley Davidson of the camera industry and not everybody wants the latest rice-rocket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M'Ate Posted October 13, 2006 Author Share #36 Posted October 13, 2006 'What you are really doing is pre-purchasing your supply of film stock and lab processing for say three or four years ahead' That equation only works if you put the M8 to professional use and I suspect that a high proportion of M8's won't be used for high volume work. There are other cameras for that. Nokia mobile phone technology will soon produce photo results that surpass the the M8 output and we'll all forget about these things called cameras with less than 39 mpix (Not !!) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradreiman Posted October 13, 2006 Share #37 Posted October 13, 2006 i must respectfully disagree with the above statement as i am buying an m8 FOR the rangefinder, body etc. i have used most cameras out there and yes the leica lenses are exceptionally special....but-i really use a leica because ever since i put one to my eye i felt like i had found the camera i had been looking for. i like how they feel, the precision. the real joy i get is in operating a leica and kicking around making pictures. lucky for me the m system produces such quality images. for me the decision isn't primarily economical. im tired of crap labs and sitting in front of a scanner more than anything. economically i think i'll save a fortune in film and processing by switching to digital but thats not why im jumping on the m8. its more about the m feel and the convenience of digital for me. i never really have bought a leica with resale in mind. don't think i could ever actually sell one of mine as i become quite attatched to the little buggers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 13, 2006 Share #38 Posted October 13, 2006 Nokia mobile phone technology will soon produce photo results that surpass the the M8 output... Only after the introduction of porcine aviation I suspect ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maddin Posted October 13, 2006 Share #39 Posted October 13, 2006 By the way - the comparison with CD players is not apt, which is why I didn't use it. Because - the CD standard was fixed at the time of its introduction in 1982 as 16 bit, 44khz sampling rate. And this has never been changed (for domestic CD replay). That's as if digital cameras had always had a fixed standard of 8 bit RGB, 4 Megapixel capture and always would. John John, maybe your hint to the CD standard does lead to a solution. While efforts to create new audio formats (DVD at 24/196 or even SACD) are looking rather unsucessfull upsampling doesn't. When there is a measurable and audible gain upsampling a 16/44khz to a 24/176 or 196 format for instance there should be a similar positive effect on digital video or photo data. What I just do not understand is that to my knowledge nobody is offering such equipment yet. Eventually it looks the same to me: transferring or computing light/sound waves to as many as possible dots on a curve and estimating the infinite number of not calculated dots inbetween. With that on my mind, I wouldn't not worry any upcoming improvement, get the M8 and use it as long as the other Ms. Mechanical build looks at least solid enough. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted October 13, 2006 Share #40 Posted October 13, 2006 Again, life is short and unpredictable. If person wants an M8 and can afford to buy, he or she should get it, make lots of pictures with it and let the future take care of itself. Cheers from the existentialist, Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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