sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #41 Posted October 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The CFV was discontinued but now there's CFV II. LOL Ok, to get all facts straight and make everyone happy, I've just remade my diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi sdai, Take a look here Wait for S2 or snap up a deal.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #42 Posted October 31, 2008 The CFV was discontinued but now there's CFV II. LOL Ok, to get all facts straight and make everyone happy, I've just remade my diagram. Excellent. Looks so much better. To the totally biased eyes of a square shooter, what this illustration proves beyond any doubt is that the only sensor bigger than the CFV is the P65 !! And it must be said ~ only by a relatively small amount. No wonder there are so many happy CFV owners. LOL Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 31, 2008 Share #43 Posted October 31, 2008 ...... the best solution. I carry one system, I get to be sure of having the shot... Tim - I'm pretty sure all the MF options will give you the print size you want, file quality is their business. I was trying to tap in to a way of working which might be natural to you, but with quality gear you already have. I remember a trip to the seaside on a bright summer day with a friend shooting digital MF tethered to his laptop. Whilst he was slowly going insane trying to figure out what was on his laptop under the reflections, I was quietly shooting away with my ancient Plaubel Makina 6x7 rangefinder. I doubt he ever took his rig out of the studio after that; all gear has trade-offs of course. Glad you enjoyed Kander as much as me. It was the first real wow moment I've had for quite a while! Here's a different kind of wow; 2000 images stitched apparently, 17 Gigapixel images of Yosemite. Get past the Obama advert, let it load, click on the little oscillating red circles for close-ups. Hardly the finest ever pictures made in Yosemite, but food for thought nevertheless. YOSEMITE-17-GIGAPIXELS ............... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tashley Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share #44 Posted October 31, 2008 YOSEMITE-17-GIGAPIXELS ............... Chris Blimey! You can't pick you nose in private anywhere these days! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markowich Posted October 31, 2008 Share #45 Posted October 31, 2008 if canikon annouced a camera 10 months before its release they would get beaten up by the crowd. so the S2 can at most be considered as a project with prototypes. we all know that canikon have a lot of prototypes in the testing phase, they just do not show them around in press conferences. when the S2 comes out (should i say if..) then the world will have turned around many times and leica will be squeezed or even squashed by phaseone/leaf/sinar on the high end and canikon with 24-35 mpx on the low end. so where is their market share going to be? japanese collectors? m8 die-hards? i am confused about mr kauffmann's business plan. peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted October 31, 2008 Share #46 Posted October 31, 2008 leica will be squeezed or even squashed by phaseone/leaf/sinar on the high end and canikon with 24-35 mpx on the low end. peter I have a different view, but it is only a view based on some inside information. I know that Leica thoroughly analysed CaNikon lens line-ups and found that the designs were of limited capability in terms of resolution to feed the sensors beyond say 25 mpix. Many photographers have discovered that or themselves. So, designing a higher quality lens system with a sensor that is 56% bigger than where CaNikon is today puts them out of reach, not on pixel power, but image quality. It would need a complete revival of the CaNikon bodies and lenses to compete for a small sector - for them. On the top end, the handling characteristics of the MF crowd is less than ideal for moving subjects, but which one of those is going to develop an DSLR when their efforts are going into making chips one could eat a meal off ? Who needs the S2 ? The fairly big market of hand-held studio photographers shooting fashion and vehicles. No 10 frames a second, but something that can stay with a twirling skirt and a moving model - 1Ds stuff, but higher quality. How many units - doesn't matter because the investment is spread across all the product lines and the big volume will come from the R10, no doubt. Without the S2 programme, Leica wouldn't have a chance of staying with independent product lines. With it it'll be king of the niches, top of the hill with a brand to die for. Only the view of an ex global marketing guy. Just an opinion. Rolo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted October 31, 2008 Share #47 Posted October 31, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I didn't bring up the CFV-size sensors, someone else did. However, the P30-size sensor is not dead or to be discontinued (in any sense other than all products will eventually be discontinued); that is a made-up fact. The P30 back has been replaced with the P30+, which uses the de-facto chip for high ISO in MF. I use the kodak 16mp 36.8 square sensor as well, hasselblad 96 back..I thought it was MF these past few years... my linhof technika IV is large format despite it being discontinued.. point is, the S2 sensor @ 39 mp is up there with the big boys.. sure not as big as some but @ real use print sizes it is as good.. and while we are on it .. I am advocating dropping the whole small, med and large format lingo... the p65 sensor or a 39ms will give you 8x10 quality.. for those who seek that look..the depth of field and look is not 8x10 but the resolution is way up there.. beyond anything your dad's hasselblad could give you with any iso100 film..period.. the 22ms I have used matched my 4x5 film.. so all these labels taged to the lens and body are misleading..just because the shape of the body of the s2 is dslr looking this baby will put my mfdb to shame.. and I can print big with that back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted October 31, 2008 Share #48 Posted October 31, 2008 How many units - doesn't matter because the investment is spread across all the product lines and the big volume will come from the R10, no doubt. That's exactly what I've said when the "S2 forum" was established. Now Leica has a flagship, and it's leaving Canikon behind at least in terms of sensor size. I do not plan to buy the S2 and I suspect its image quality will be so much better than the R10 if both cameras' sensors are to be based on the same Kodak 6 micron platform and, there never will be f/1.4 S lenses not to mention a Noctilux for low light shooting. All being said, I wish the S2 a true success and with Leica's future built on that, all users of R10 and M9 can benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted November 5, 2008 Share #49 Posted November 5, 2008 For the 35mm folks it is much more compelling for sure. Just a much better image all around and with 12 stops of DR compared to the best 9 stops out there , this is huge. Guy, this is the first time that I have heard definitely that the S2 will be capable of a 12 stop dynamic range! The only other integrated digital MF camera is the Mamiya ZD and neither this or the ZD back is true 16 bit colour depth and unable to give a 12 stop DR. I wonder how Leica will be able to do this then with an integrated digital camera? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 5, 2008 Share #50 Posted November 5, 2008 All the Phase One Kodak sensors are 12 stops of DR. The new S2 sensor although slightly different will have that same range. This is the MAIN reason to go MF besides others of course the DR is amazing. I actually have to add some black sometimes . LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 5, 2008 Share #51 Posted November 5, 2008 Here are the specs of the P30 plus sensor. This will be the closet sensor to the S2 in terms of physical sensor size, 31mpx, 6.8 microns and microlenses and really the back we should compare to against the S2. Which is slightly different 37 mpx, 6 microns and microlenses. Now there is also a technology advancement on the S2 sensor since it is a new sensor built for Leica . Micheal may have more tech info on that side of it but this is the current sensor today that very closely matches the S2. This is all good stuff also the P30 plus is the highest rated ISO back today at ISO 1600 Check out these specs. P 30+ Imaging technology CCD: Less than full frame CCD Lens Factor: 1.3 Resolution: 31.6 mega pixels Active pixels: 6496 x 4872 pixels CCD size effective: 44.2 x 33.1 mm Pixel size: 6.8 x 6.8 micron Image ratio: 4:3 Microlens on CCD: Yes Antiblooming: 10 f-stops Dynamic range: 12 f-stops Storage files Phase Ones IIQ RAW file format speeds up the image capture and file transfer. Increases the storage capacity by turning the full 16 bit image data into a compact RAW file format. The default IIQ RAW-large format is completely lossless. llQ small: 22 MB llQ large: 35 MB Output files Color depth: 16 bit per color Image file formats: TIFF-RGB, TIFF-CMYK, JPEG Color management: RGB, Embedded ICC profile, CMYK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted November 5, 2008 Share #52 Posted November 5, 2008 There will be Leica lenses for the Phase One. So that might point out a direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 5, 2008 Share #53 Posted November 5, 2008 Well that one is still a rumor and actually I have been in close contact with Phase on some projects that I know are coming later and they will not disclose some info on who is making what lenses for them and there partners. This would be and I agree a great idea for leica to expand there lens line to others as well. But until we hear some real facts on what leica will be doing if anything outside the S2 walls than it is speculation on there although a rumor i would like to see come true. It would be good for leica and good for Phase . So it would be a win win situation for them. This is a small market with a lot of partnerships and joint ventures between most of the companies involved in MF so it does make sense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted November 5, 2008 Share #54 Posted November 5, 2008 If Leica is gonna build a 645 lens for the PhaseOne camera, then there's one less reason to buy a S2. I don't think it'll happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted November 5, 2008 Share #55 Posted November 5, 2008 Yes and No Simon. Some will not buy a S2 because it is integrated camera and also because they already have a lot of money tied up in a MF system already and switching them will kill them financially. I see it both ways actually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevelap Posted November 5, 2008 Share #56 Posted November 5, 2008 If Leica is gonna build a 645 lens for the PhaseOne camera, then there's one less reason to buy a S2. I don't think it'll happen. I don't think that would be the case Simon. The S2 is a different concept in that without a removable back it's form factor is more like a dslr's. In other words it will be smaller, lighter and more portable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhsimmonds Posted November 6, 2008 Share #57 Posted November 6, 2008 All the Phase One Kodak sensors are 12 stops of DR. The new S2 sensor although slightly different will have that same range. Thanks for this Guy. In fact nearly all digital backs are 16 bit colour depth these days wheras the integrated cameras are not. Even the DMR is 16 bit whereas the integrated M8 does not have a true 16 bit per colour depth. So it is not just a Kodak thing in my view although they are really superb. The DMR also has a Kodak sensor, does anyone know the dynamic range of the DMR? I have never seen a detailed spec of the S2 but will be watching it like a hawk after the M8! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
georg Posted November 7, 2008 Share #58 Posted November 7, 2008 The DMR and the M8 almost use the same sensor/converter-technology as the 31/39MP-backs with Kodak-sensors so they should have the same DR. The technical data of the new 6um-sensor-generation shows a very similar performance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khun_k Posted November 8, 2008 Share #59 Posted November 8, 2008 The DMR and the M8 almost use the same sensor/converter-technology as the 31/39MP-backs with Kodak-sensors so they should have the same DR.The technical data of the new 6um-sensor-generation shows a very similar performance. Although physical limitation reamins the same, technology does push its reach further and further, so generation of generation of chip manufacturering does not only increase its mps count as a result of smaller pixles, there are also tons of other things being implemented. Todays smaller pixles does not always perform worse than the last generation larger pixles. Likewise, as the technology moves and although I am not all the time agree to everything the industries does, the maker are not likely to develop their best technology on 6um sensor and go back to apply to thier 9um sensors, they most likely to push it further. More pixles counts not always bring all the benefit, but let's be realistic, it does bring many benefits. And some may like it and some may not, at least, it push the lens design to another level, a negative impact for pocket, but positive for image quality. The S2 will no doubt to deliver great image, as already proved by DMR and M8. The S2 can be considered medium format, but it is not 645, so the lens may not be useful on 645 format cameras. If Leica as a company wants to profit itself by doing lenses for other camera mounts, I don't think the logic in medium format, I think Leica should focus on 135mm lenses and offer their best at what they good at, or simply convert some of their R lenses to be fitted with EF, F and other mount. Their alliance with Phase One is more software based I beleive, in today's fiercy competition, everyone is looking one for alliance, as we have seen happened many times, if Leica want to cooperate with Phase One on the 645 type camera, they might as well design from the ground up a new 645 system, but they did not. Personally, if image quality is good enough and useful for each individual type of shooting, I don't think the photographer care whether it is a 8X10, 645, or 135, as long as it gets the work done - at least for people who lives on photogrpahy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted November 8, 2008 Share #60 Posted November 8, 2008 Snap up a deal, why wait! If Leica really succeeds to bring the S2 and some lenses next year, you should wait at least anther year to see the flawless functionality of the S2 and to be able to judge the Pro Service which they want to offer for that system. All of these have to come together, otherwise the S2 remains to be HOT AIR! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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