wparsonsgisnet Posted October 3, 2008 Share #1 Posted October 3, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I purchased an Epson 1400 and the K6 Piezo CIS from Jon Cone (Inkjetmall.com). I have been desaturating in C1 or PS and then tweaking the curves or levels in PS or the controls for exp/highlite or levels in C1. I don't particularly like to work with curves because I can't figure out what the "parameters" were, so can't repeat things. It would be terrific if some of the monsters here would describe their b/w workflow. Thanks in advance, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Hi wparsonsgisnet, Take a look here B/W workflow. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Tim B Posted October 3, 2008 Share #2 Posted October 3, 2008 Bill, Just a quick first response to your question. I have lots of different actions for converting to B&W in PS downloaded from various sources, but there are two things that I most often do. Usually in PS CS3 I use the B & W Adjustment Layer. This allows a lot of scope for tonal manipulation and adding tints if required. As it is a layer you can always go back to it and re-adjust at any time before flattening the image. And you still have the full colour layer you started with. Also you can note the adjustment factors for re-use on future images. Sometimes I will do the conversion in ACR (latest version). I do this by saving a preset with all colours at zero saturation, which is then easy to reapply for future images. This still allows tonal adjustment by varying the luminance level of the colours (and since you can note the usjustment factors they too can be repeated.) And of course since this is done in ACR you can always revert to other raw conversion parameters. But it does mean that once passed on from ACR to PS you are stuck with the B&W. I have found these two methods suit me most of the time. Both are quick and easy and very flexible. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointcolville Posted October 4, 2008 Share #3 Posted October 4, 2008 I purchased Silver Efex Pro based on comments and samples here in the forum and now my workflow is either: 1) Sort out the color image in Lightroom (WB, exposure, clarity for microcontrast etc.), open in Silver Efex and then experiment with different settings or 2) If I don't get a good result I go to the CS3 conversion and fiddle with colors until I get the tonal separation that I'm looking for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted October 4, 2008 Share #4 Posted October 4, 2008 I purchased an Epson 1400 and the K6 Piezo CIS from Jon Cone (Inkjetmall.com). I have been desaturating in C1 or PS and then tweaking the curves or levels in PS or the controls for exp/highlite or levels in C1. I don't particularly like to work with curves because I can't figure out what the "parameters" were, so can't repeat things. It would be terrific if some of the monsters here would describe their b/w workflow. Thanks in advance, Bill, I'm no "Monster", but I'm very interested in your query. I'm wondering if you could provide a couple images in color & the B&W conversions you made, along with your comments about them. Particularly, I would like to know what it is that you want the "look" to be and what you find satisfactory in each image. I think there's many ways to skin a cat and we could all learn together by comparing the various methodologies in the work flows. Do you ever work in the LAB colorspace? If so, I'd be grateful if you have images that demonstrate the B&W conversions possible. I've been experimenting in LAB & find I'm getting results that are almost impossible to achieve (at my skill level) in the other colorspaces. I believe LAB holds the most promise in working with B&W and achieving very wide tonal ranges and super sharp (where you WANT sharpness) images without noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 4, 2008 Share #5 Posted October 4, 2008 I use Alien Skin Exposure. Lots of presets, all of which can be tweaked to give you a look you like, and those settings can be saved to give you a consistent look to your conversions together with the settings 'as shipped'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonkirk Posted October 5, 2008 Share #6 Posted October 5, 2008 When I used earlier versions of PS & did quite a lot of BW printing, I quickly made a sheet of four different conversions - Grayscale, Best channel, Channel mixer, & LAB conversion - & picked the one I liked best to work with. Usually it was Channel mixer or LAB. I printed using Roy Harrington's QTR. Now, however, I can find no fault with the BW Adjustment layer in PSCS3 (& presumably 4). It lets me move the sliders to approximate the different filters that I might have used - mostly Y or G. I wonder if I'm missing something by not trying Silver EFEX Pro. Assuming I don't plan to use 'grain effects,' nor emulate particular films (which isn't necessary given the controls in the BW Adjustment Layer), nor tone the image (which is accomplished nicely by the Canon 5100 monochrome driver), what does the Nik software do that I might be missing? Also, has anyone using a Canon wide-format printer tried the Bowhaus BW software? Thx for any advice, Kirk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guywalder Posted October 5, 2008 Share #7 Posted October 5, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't particularly like to work with curves because I can't figure out what the "parameters" were, so can't repeat things. silly question maybe, but why dont you just tweak the curve until happy, and then save it? You can reload it for each file, or include it in an action, or just use it as a starting point for future tweaking..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharookh Posted October 5, 2008 Share #8 Posted October 5, 2008 My methodology of converting Colour to B/W is based on Greg Gormans. If you wish I can list the procedure in step-wise form. To me, it is the most outstanding conversion method. I get black, white and gray with sufficient rich detail and tones from cool to warm, to my liking. However, a caveat...! As usual, you would require a correctly exposed colour image. Obviously there's no replacement for that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tollie Posted October 5, 2008 Share #9 Posted October 5, 2008 sharookh, I would welcome the Gorman's step by step... Oh... a quick google and I have it. But could you say a bit about your experience using it? Thanks, Tollie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 5, 2008 Share #10 Posted October 5, 2008 .. I can find no fault with the BW Adjustment layer in PSCS3 ...... Kirk - I'm curious about this statement. As I don't have CS3 will you clarify whether the B&W Adjustment Layer works by keeping the image in it's original Colour Space but in a B&W form, and whether one can still 'play' the colour components of the image with other controls - such as with a Selective Colour Adjustment Layer? I'm an advocate of keeping the file in a Colour Space for as long as possible in order to have access to the colour components of the file. I use a desaturated Colour Space from Joseph Holmes which is Assigned to the file, the image is seen as a B&W image but all it's colour information remains intact until the final act - conversion to a B&W Space. ................ Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted October 5, 2008 Share #11 Posted October 5, 2008 My methodology of converting Colour to B/W is based on Greg Gormans. If you wish I can list the procedure in step-wise form. To me, it is the most outstanding conversion method. I get black, white and gray with sufficient rich detail and tones from cool to warm, to my liking.! Sharookh: did you build several actions? Or do you use just one setting? I think the color picking - it being a duotone - is very important, yes? Marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharookh Posted October 5, 2008 Share #12 Posted October 5, 2008 I am attaching a pdf file for reference, which outlines Greg Gorman's methodology. It's a step-by-step method offering tremendous flexibility for tone. Let me know how it helps you in conversions to B/W. The only additional step I would recommend is introducing a duplicate layer between steps 1 and 2. This allows you to review and alter your layers if required. BLACK AND WHITE CONVERSION - Greg Gorman.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted October 5, 2008 Share #13 Posted October 5, 2008 I agree with Kirk. The BW adjustment layer works well for me. I tried the bw conversion in ACR, but the results just didn't appear the same. I really respect Steve's appreciation of AlienSkin, but it's too pricey for me and the results (for me) don't warrant its use. I also find Curves a wonder for fine tuning a converted bw image. There are many books out there on bw digital and while I've purchased several, the one I find most useful is Advanced Digital Black&White Photography by John Beardsworth. I have yet to try the LAB type conversion and if I could remember that I wished to try it out when I'm actually doing a conversion, I would. "Mad cow, mad cow." Denny Crane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thompsonkirk Posted October 5, 2008 Share #14 Posted October 5, 2008 Hi, Chris - The BW Adjustment Layer is exactly that - if you don't flatten the image, then it's just another layer piled on top of all the other corrections you've made to the color version. It consists of color sliders that amount, as I mentioned, to "filters" such as you'd use for BW film photography - except that you can change more than one per image, for example darker sky as if you'd used a Y or R filter, plus lighter foliage as if you'd used G. You can go back & forth to the color version any time you want, just by un-checking the layer. Re: the IP about Curves: IMO Curves are the most essential PS tool for BW, allowing you to open shadows & modulate highlights at will - for the overall image or any selected area. Yes, it's hard to copy a curve manually, measuring the parameters for each point; but you don't have to do that! You're allowed to save any Curve to your Desktop (or wherever), & apply it to the same image later, or to another image! Kirk PS, Thanks, Sharookh, for the link to the Gorman method. I'll take a look. It certainly works well for the conversions you post here! Epson shows his prints at their Print Academies, & they're always impressive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisC Posted October 6, 2008 Share #15 Posted October 6, 2008 ...The BW Adjustment Layer is exactly that - if you don't flatten the image, then it's just another layer piled on top of all the other corrections you've made to the color version.... Kirk - Thank you very much for the clarification, this would be a very useful addition to the working method I already use. The big bonus being that conversion can kept as the final post processing act - as it should be. ............... Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share #16 Posted October 8, 2008 Thank you all. I have ordered the Beardsworth book and will get cracking. I note that he has another b/w book, less advanced. I'll work on his advice and also play in CS3 per Kirk's recommendation. And, Ben, I'll post some stuff as I go along. My 1400 died and I'm waiting (1) for Epson to let me return it, and (2) for the replacement I bot from Epson to arrive. I got some b/w's out of the 1400 and on Hahnemule (thick) photo rag, it's almost like I'm handling stuff like I used to get out of my darkroom. As I post, I'll also comment on the print in somparison with the screen image. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterIH Posted October 8, 2008 Share #17 Posted October 8, 2008 Just to add to the number, here is my method for BW conversion: As I still work in PS CS2 I have no BW adjusting layer. What I do is first adjust the levels in the RGB picture (adjustment layer). Next I make on top of that two hue/saturation layers. Blending mode in the top one is normal. Saturation to -100 to get the BW. Then I activate the H/S layer under the top one. Blending mode to color. Next adjust the hue slider till I get the desired BW effect. Last to strengthen or soften the effect I use the saturation slider. After that other desired processing, all in new layers. Very convenient, when you need a layer in which al the previous steps are combined and that contains pixels (for selections) is the next: first make a new layer and then use the Ctrl+Alt+Shift+E command. The latter I always use e.g. for sharpening, either with High pass filter or the two layer UM method. Hope I did not add to the confusion. Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguewave Posted October 10, 2008 Share #18 Posted October 10, 2008 Bill sounds like an exciting project for everyone. Any chance we could get a copy (reduced size) to make our own conversions to post? That way we all can see the images produced using the same image through different workflows. Thanks for providing such a timely and interesting topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marquinius Posted October 10, 2008 Share #19 Posted October 10, 2008 Ben, fantastic idea! Bill: please do. Marco Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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