S2 High iso?

[KevinA]

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The claim is top performance at high iso, I can't see anything to say what the iso range is.

Anyone have an idea as to what the high is, high iso on Nikon and Canon is silly numbers now, MF is struggling at 4 -800iso, So where does the inbetweeny S2 stand?

 

Kevin.

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[andybarton]

Probably too early to know yet. It's a long time until it hits the streets.

[sdai]

Kodak's news release says the KAF37500 sensor for the S2 and the KAF-50100 for the Hassie H3D-50 are based on the same TRUESENSE 6.0 micron Full Frame CCD Platform.

 

If that's the case, the ISO tops at 400.

 

Since the KAF-37500 is almost 35% smaller than the KAF-50100, I guess it could handle ISO800 but without a spec. sheet it is still a guess.

 

This is probably one "major" why they can't do a R10 at the same time, there were some confusion and someone told me the S2 uses the P1/DALSA sensor, which isn't the case. Apparently, they can't/won't use a similar chip for the R10 ... so it might not be 24MP downsized from the same chip.

 

Bummer.

[KevinA]

Mmmm 400 iso would be disappointing, I hope and suspect it will be better than that.

For years I never needed much more than 100iso, this year 1600 iso has been used on several occasions and more would have been better.

 

Kevin.

[sdai]

Mmmm 400 iso would be disappointing, I hope and suspect it will be better than that.

For years I never needed much more than 100iso, this year 1600 iso has been used on several occasions and more would have been better.

 

For what it is intended to do and the target audience of the S2, it may not be a concern at all. But there's no way Leica can sell such a spec to the 35mm market ... perhaps the R10 will really end up with a CMOS sensor comin' from Canon ... or Sony?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

The clue to this is in this paragraph from Kodak

 

The LEICA S2 camera, powered by the new KODAK KAF-37500 Image Sensor, is the third product from Leica to be based on KODAK CCD Image Sensors – a relationship that began first with the LEICA Digital Module-R and was then extended with the LEICA M8 camera. With an imaging area of 45mm x 30mm, the 37.5 million pixel KAF-37500 represents a new optical format for photography, providing an image capture area over 50% larger than traditional 35mm film. The sensor also includes specific design features that optimize its use in the S2 camera, such as the use of microlenses to increase the overall light sensitivity of the device, enabling improved image quality under low light conditions. In addition, an infra-red absorbing optic was incorporated directly into the sensor’s packaging, enabling the development of a thinner camera design by eliminating the need to include this IR-absorbing function as a separate camera component.

__________________

 

Now given this is the same technology in the Phase P30 Plus back with micro lenses and also the Hassy 31 back, the new Sinar 65 back even though a different sensor it seems with this same technology with the micro lenses we could get ISO 1600 out of it since the P30 plus can do that today. Also given the fact that Phase One and Capture One can squeeze that out through software. Than there is a good chance we will see this in this Kodak sensor. i can't imagine we will not and maybe better. MF needs this very badly to get a clean ISO 1600. One of my key points to this S2 systems is it needs to provide this to be marketable.

 

I have tested the P30 Plus back in Puerto Rico and it certainly is a nice back and ISO 1600 is good but not perfect.

[Guest purpledot]

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The claim is top performance at high iso, I can't see anything to say what the iso range is.

Anyone have an idea as to what the high is, high iso on Nikon and Canon is silly numbers now, MF is struggling at 4 -800iso, So where does the inbetweeny S2 stand?

 

Kevin.

 

For what it is worth - on this picture it says 1600 iso. Cheers,

 

http://img.photographyblog.com/photokina_2008/leica_s2_12_large.jpg

[Guest guy_mancuso]

BTW with this S2 camera with micro lenses if it was a back only you would not be able to use a technical camera like a view camera because it would cause color shift issues. Now given Leica will make a T/S lens they will have to watch the limits on that. You can shift and tilt with these micro lens backs but it does have a limit before you get in the soup with color shift. I am sure with Phase helping leica here they will address this

[Guest guy_mancuso]

OT but if you catch this comment from Kodak than a full frame M9 can realize no IR filters from this sensor. Time to build a M9 . LOL

 

In addition, an infra-red absorbing optic was incorporated directly into the sensor’s packaging, enabling the development of a thinner camera design by eliminating the need to include this IR-absorbing function as a separate camera component.

__________________

[sdai]

For what it is worth - on this picture it says 1600 iso. Cheers,

 

http://img.photographyblog.com/photokina_2008/leica_s2_12_large.jpg

 

A picture is worth more than a thousand words. LOL I hope it will really look good.

[luigi bertolotti]

OT but if you catch this comment from Kodak than a full frame M9 can realize no IR filters from this sensor. Time to build a M9 . LOL

 

In addition, an infra-red absorbing optic was incorporated directly into the sensor’s packaging, enabling the development of a thinner camera design by eliminating the need to include this IR-absorbing function as a separate camera component.

__________________

 

Eh eh eh, me too noticed this... M9 FF 24 MP no IR filter within 2 years ?

[EH21]

The other cameras using the Truesense technology sensors from Kodak are the Sinar 65 and the Hasselblad H50. The Sinar 31mp sensor also has the microlenses and will perform to ISO 800. The H50 has a basic ISO range of 50-400 (with a software boosted 800) but I think does not have the microlenses.

 

While it does appear that you can set the S2 camera to ISO 1600 - that is not saying much. I mean I can set my DMR to 1600 too but the files are unusable. I'll bet based on the other camera sharing similar sensors that it will do at least ISO 800 but wonder if the fuji processing chip lets them get a real usable 1600 as well?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

One of the 64 thousand dollar questions I agree. I have about 5 of these questions , maybe more if i really put some thought in it.

[charlesphoto99]

One of the 64 thousand dollar questions I agree. I have about 5 of these questions , maybe more if i really put some thought in it.

 

And $64K is about what it's gonna cost for you to get fully into this system!

[AlanG]

BTW with this S2 camera with micro lenses if it was a back only you would not be able to use a technical camera like a view camera because it would cause color shift issues. Now given Leica will make a T/S lens they will have to watch the limits on that. You can shift and tilt with these micro lens backs but it does have a limit before you get in the soup with color shift. I am sure with Phase helping leica here they will address this

 

Keep in mind that the 30 TS is a retro-focus design and this may minimize the color shift issue. (Just as with 35mm FF cameras.) Specialized W/A cameras using the the 24mm Digitar have no movements. (The lens doesn't even fully cover the 36x48 format.) I understand that when other lenses are tilted and shifted with various backs, there is the possibility of color shifts. This needs to be compensated for by shooting a reference image using a diffuser over the lens.

 

It seems to me that it is quite an achievement to have a 30mm TS lens and a 24mm for this format. The main reason I never got into an MF digital system is the difficulty of using wide angle and ultra wide angle especially with shifts. And the high cost of course. Whereas with MF film, this is pretty easy. Maybe some of these issues are getting sorted out.

 

I certainly haven't handled the camera and there haven't been any detailed posts about how it works, but...

 

Is there a switch to go between MF and AF?

Is there a button to lock the exposure?

Is there a button to lock the focus?

Exposure compensation?

ISO setting?

 

Can all of these and other basic functions be cleverly hidden?

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Alan since you ask let me add this

 

Is there a switch to go between MF and AF?

Is there a button to lock the exposure?

Is there a button to lock the focus?

Exposure compensation?

ISO setting?

Highest clean ISO?

Shutter lag Time?

4 button control like Phase One backs and same type of setup on it. ISO,WB,Menu,Play

Can you lock the back buttons, so you don't make a change by accident?

Shutter /Aperture info in finder?

100 percent viewing area?

Dedicated Flash or Metz shoe?

Lens corrections in C1?

Removable screens?

Lowest ISO?

Jpg B&W?

Jpg controls in camera?

Jpg sizing?

 

 

I guess we have lot's of questions

[andybarton]

Guy

 

Don't you know?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Wish I did , truth be told not sure anyone knew about this before it was launched except inside leica's doors. I did guess correctly though if that counts for anything. Maybe a lollipop . :D

 

Guess to early to tell what the guts will be like. I would love to see Leica take a different approach on this though. Would be nice if we could get a monthly update report. I think that would be fun to talk about and also keep the interest up. Maybe Andrea's can suggest that to leica and post here. I would not mind it either over at my place. Be fun to watch the clock per say

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[markowich]

Keep in mind that the 30 TS is a retro-focus design and this may minimize the color shift issue. (Just as with 35mm FF cameras.) Specialized W/A cameras using the the 24mm Digitar have no movements. (The lens doesn't even fully cover the 36x48 format.) I understand that when other lenses are tilted and shifted with various backs, there is the possibility of color shifts. This needs to be compensated for by shooting a reference image using a diffuser over the lens.

 

this is true for kodak ccd based digital backs, like the P45 and P45+. the dalsa based backs (leaf) are much better behaved in this respect. i (almost) never see a color shift on my A75, even with rather extreme movements, say with the schneider digitar 35mm or 47mm.

the upcoming phaseone P65 will also use a dalsa sensor, we hope that it will also not be prone to color shifts.

peter

[AlanG]

this is true for kodak ccd based digital backs, like the P45 and P45+. the dalsa based backs (leaf) are much better behaved in this respect. i (almost) never see a color shift on my A75, even with rather extreme movements, say with the schneider digitar 35mm or 47mm. the upcoming phaseone P65 will also use a dalsa sensor, we hope that it will also not be prone to color shifts.

peter

 

That is very interesting about the Dalsa chips. And it is good to get a first hand report about this as I see so little information about how far one can shift with any of these back/lens combos. I think it was about 3 years ago that I checked out a Cambo Wide DS that had a 24 Digitar and a 22 megapixel 36x48 back from Megavision. (I don't know if they are currently very active.) This is the back that had a clip on OQO computer. The Megavision guy told me the same thing about Dalsa chips and why they use them. He explained it in technical - something about how the pixel wells of the Kodak and Dalsa chips vary. Or the mask around them is different. I was never sure if he was blowing smoke or not.

 

Maybe this is why Leaf still uses Dalsa chips even though they are owned by Kodak.

 

Since I have been using DXO and also stitch images for higher res., I feel less pressure to buy MF gear now. (Oh, by the way, the economy sucks too.)

 

You can't learn much about the functionality of the S2 simply from the photos. The screen looks as if it is removable. And the tripod socket mounting looks robust.