AlanG Posted September 23, 2008 Share #261 Posted September 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) ,,,I think the R10 will deliver the AF-speed and pictures per second enough for most photographers (it's really a bad habit many C shooters have developed with shooting 8 shots a second when doing portraits!) The recycle speed of the strobe is a limiting factor. Ages ago, when I assisted, some photographers used to shoot with Hassys as fast as I could re-load. I had to keep a mental count of the frames and when they hit 12, I would switch backs. One guy would go crazy if he ever advanced after the 12th frame and tried to shoot, therefore missing a "great" expression. That is why I liked the Rollei 6006 as it automatically wound after the last frame. As for the S2. Yes it is different from other MF systems in that it has a fixed back and fixed prism. I think that will hurt sales for people comparing it with other MF systems. But perhaps good integration, comfortable handling, and speed can make up for that in bringing over people from 35mm format DSLRs. When Mamiya came out with the ZD, they also made an MF back for their other cameras. I am not sure which sold better. I wouldn't expect that the S2 can make a better quality photo than is produced by current MF gear. I used Hasselblad and then the Rollei 6006 gear extensively from 1971 until pretty recently. I used a 90 degree prism and waist level finder on the Hassys and had two prisms (45 and 90) plus the waist level finder for the Rolleis. I had 6 lenses (40 to 350) for the Rolleis yet still had the need for a 35mm system, a 6x9 system and a 4x5 system. The Rollei prisms rotate to help facilitate shooting straight down, or when the camera is in an awkward position such as against a wall. I imagine the S2 will have an optional angled eyepiece viewer. The fixed back on the S2 precludes back upgrades, although perhaps Leica can still be able to upgrade the sensor and electronics in the future. It think the viewing and back flexibility of MF cameras was a big plus over the 35mm format. So not having that is tough to compromise on especially if you have the need to take the back off of the reflex body and mount it to a specialty wide angle or small view camera. Why do you think that companies such as Sinar, Arca Swiss, Alpa, Cambo, Linhof, Silvestri, and others now have a range of small specialized wide angle, techical and versatile view cameras that have been designed for MF digital backs and the shorter focal length lenses they use? (Compared to the lenses on 6x9cm or 4x5 view cameras.) I think one may have to be fairly high end, but also rather specialized, to make use of the S2. I see it for portraiture, fashion, aerials, and more. But not so appealing to a general purpose commercial shooter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 23, 2008 Posted September 23, 2008 Hi AlanG, Take a look here Digital Reflex S2 - please post all thoughts here.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted September 23, 2008 Share #262 Posted September 23, 2008 Not sure where my avatar is actually . LOL Maybe it grew to old. It depends on the specs of this and honestly the speed a area that i could use a little more horsepower. Most MF shooters are in the same boat as me. ISO limits at ISO 800 that are usable but a clean ISO 1600 would be awesome. other big issue is speed of the back ,mine currently is 1.5 seconds before next exposure. Some are quicker and it is getting down to 1 second on the bigger sensor backs and that is good but a 1.5 FPS would be awesome. Shutter lag is obvious on my Mamiya body , less so with others but still there. 3 inch LCD would be welcome . This is just starting to happen in MF. T/S is also pretty rare in MF so this coming from leica is a welcome lens . Now for a lot of landscape shooters these area's are no big deal , given i shoot everything with MF and my work is varied the speed issue is important. So from what we see on the specs so far the S2 looks pretty dang good. i think most MF shooters are looking for very small improvements overall clean ISO 1600 and I mean clean, faster back , improved shutter lag , better firmware , bigger LCD's and great new T/S and macro lenses in the, market than this is a very welcome camera to come.The big issue also is service and MF shooters in particular are mostly Pro's and service needs to be top notch and loaners and short turn service times really need to be realized. The alliance with Phase here is actually very very smart for Leica to do. They will make the firmware , software and help get this thing rolling out on solid footing. This is huge since Phase One has a ton of experience here and been around a long time with all the MF channels throughout the Globe. My opinion Leica should build it and use Phase to run it. Use there dealerships and leica dealerships to sell it but use Phase to repair and service it. How this all works out remains to be seen but the more they use Phase on this project the better the product will be overall. Certainly i will be watching this with great interest. My one wish is it has the Mamiya lens mount which will give this camera a sweeping appeal , since than we could use either the Leica glass or Mamiya glass which BTW they make some really good ones. This area will be ineteresting to see how all these alliances workout. Phase has a huge alliance with Mamiya, which builds there bodies and lenses and Phase makes the backs for them. Overall this in my mind is awesome for the market and some very bright thinking on Leica's part. You may see a lot of DSLR users that want MORE to move up without jumping into complete MF and still get the speed needed from the DSLR. This is a very interesting camera and not sure why many are snubbing it. If priced correctly this will be a serious tool for many shooters Pro and hobbyists alike. Better start buying more hard drives. LOL Looks like a good time to start looking on e-bay if you need a lightly used kidney... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 23, 2008 Share #263 Posted September 23, 2008 Agree Alan the one big area of concern is the integration of the back and body. It has it good points but also some downfalls. No technical camera can be used . Backs rarely go down but bodies do ,so that could create havoc. Putting them together adds more potential issues somewhat. The buyer simply has to make some choices on what they shoot and see if it works out to be the best solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 23, 2008 Share #264 Posted September 23, 2008 I have none left , been running on tubes. LOL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted September 23, 2008 Share #265 Posted September 23, 2008 Alan, it may not compare to the hi end MFDBs in terms of absolutely picture quality, but it's the 2nd MF DSLR on the go (and the ZD wasn't quite successful), right? It really uses a DALSA/P1 medium format sensor, and most folks buying it will get paid on the job - never mind what he/she will use it for. It deserves a good place in the market, just for the T/S lens alone somebody should get it. I do agree the one big downer is not having a removable back for that kind of money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 23, 2008 Share #266 Posted September 23, 2008 After these S2 and R10 news I can only congratulate the Leica Team!All my best wishes to staff, brand and investor for these great and promising plans. I myself, one of these M8 guys, will wait for the S2-line; I consider this concept as a complimentary line and a truly good alternative to traditional DSLRs and too big (and expensive) professional medium format cameras. Fully agree!!! Congratulations too!!! I also see some difficulties in placing the R10 on the market... This article by Mike Johnston is an interesting reading: The Online Photographer: Real Innovation from Leica . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted September 23, 2008 Share #267 Posted September 23, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Guy, what are you using MF for that you need hi speed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 23, 2008 Share #268 Posted September 23, 2008 I assume Leica will have a large bright right angle viewer as part of the S kit. I used to use one regularly on my Contax RX and RTS2 and found very little downside compared with the waist level finder on my Mamiya 645. In fact the right angle viewer is better because you don't have side to side reversal. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 23, 2008 Share #269 Posted September 23, 2008 I assume Leica will have a large bright right angle viewer as part of the S kit. I used to use one regularly on my Contax RX and RTS2 and found very little downside compared with the waist level finder on my Mamiya 645. In fact the right angle viewer is better because you don't have side to side reversal. Wilson I agree with you although traditionally some photographers liked to shoot from the waist. I heard one famous photographer (at the time) say it let him shoot from the gut and not from the brain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted September 23, 2008 Share #270 Posted September 23, 2008 Agree Alan the one big area of concern is the integration of the back and body. It has it good points but also some downfalls. No technical camera can be used . Backs rarely go down but bodies do ,so that could create havoc. Putting them together adds more potential issues somewhat. The buyer simply has to make some choices on what they shoot and see if it works out to be the best solution. I believe you have two backs. Even though not all of my work is super demanding, I don't want to ever have to go back to re-shoot. So I carry duplicates of everything - several bodies, two tripods, two laptops, lots of extra lights, plenty of lenses duplicating most focal lengths, etc. This gets prohibitively expensive with MF gear so chances are one will have a 35mm DSLR system as backup too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 23, 2008 Share #271 Posted September 23, 2008 Various things but 2 weeks ago i shot a golf tournament. Plus i do a lot of corporate events too. Last week i shot all fashion. So it really varies. In a couple weeks i have a huge interior shoot. Talk about all over the map. In reality the S2 is actually more my style than the MF system. If it has all the right specs but i need big and the DSLR's just don't do that at the level I want. I have been able to do just fine with the MF on everything but that little extra burst of speed would be just about perfect. Bill I will say the files are something else too. Pure Kodak look like the DMR and M8 so i have not fallen very far from the look of my files. The S2 will keep me in Kodak land also. Going to be watching this one close and have to feel real confident about it before i pull the trigger . This is big money and you don't want to make a bad call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wparsonsgisnet Posted September 23, 2008 Share #272 Posted September 23, 2008 ... This is big money and you don't want to make a bad call. Geez, I'm glad to know the M8 and lenses are cheap... I just feel good all over. So does my insurance guy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham_mitchell Posted September 23, 2008 Share #273 Posted September 23, 2008 Are you sure that the deal between Jenoptik and Leica fell through? This was just announced in June 2008. I know Leica's effort to buy Sinar fell through a couple of years ago. Yes I was referring to the attempted purchase of Sinar. Sorry for any confusion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted September 23, 2008 Share #274 Posted September 23, 2008 LOL your insurance guy I am sure sends all the right Holiday cards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitnaros Posted September 23, 2008 Share #275 Posted September 23, 2008 The camera having an integrated back, which you can't take off, is a plus and minus, but not a deciding factor for success in the market, imo. That way it is "fully" integrated; Hassy went a similar way and some folks were extremely upset, but the H3D-II seems to be selling well. Any Canon or Nikon is like that. The other question is whether photographers who need a very compact and high-quality camera system, really are the ones that also shoot 4x5 large format cameras. I doubt it. It makes sense for Leica to go into the market with the S launch and then launch a 'downsized' R10 or similar. If they get the S working properly, the R10 should work out fine. If they would lead with a R10, it does not mean you can upgrade the design to S performance. What I want to see is whether Leica lenses can demonstrate significant improvement over Fuji/Hassy, Mamiya and Rollei lenses. If they can pull this off, and the body works according spec, they will find customers. I give them the credit of the doubt on the lens side... Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted September 23, 2008 Share #276 Posted September 23, 2008 The upside compared with a Hassy H3-D is that with the S2, you won't get a hernia after carrying around for 10 minutes :-}} Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 23, 2008 Share #277 Posted September 23, 2008 surely the development team can put one image this camera produces on their website..no? I would like to see something shot wide open please with the four lenses that will be released first..and just for fun it would be nice to have a m8 & dmr shot of same to compare or am I just crazy? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookeye Posted September 23, 2008 Share #278 Posted September 23, 2008 Wow! I am impressed by the mean look and concept of the S2. I find it a bit odd they have not released the full specifications. Perhaps the camera is not quite ready yet. After all - it is not due to come to market before in the spring of '09? Hence no demo pictures either? Does anybody know what is that thing they have bolted on the bottom of the camera in the final photo on the 'official' post. If it had been a film based camera - I would recognize it as a motor unit, but what could it possibly be on the S2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Fanchin Posted September 23, 2008 Share #279 Posted September 23, 2008 After seeing the new S2, all I can say is that I am proud to be a Leica fan.... And I am happy that Leica chose the 2/3 format, see the discussion: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/58775-4-3-2-3-a.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmoore Posted September 23, 2008 Share #280 Posted September 23, 2008 Wow! I am impressed by the mean look and concept of the S2. I find it a bit odd they have not released the full specifications. Perhaps the camera is not quite ready yet. After all - it is not due to come to market before in the spring of '09? Hence no demo pictures either? Does anybody know what is that thing they have bolted on the bottom of the camera in the final photo on the 'official' post. If it had been a film based camera - I would recognize it as a motor unit, but what could it possibly be on the S2? extra battery power for extended shooting time and shutter release button for shooting in portrait / vertical postion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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