More M8 Hands-On Impressions

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Personally being a long time DMR user about 20 months now, i have no doubt it will be excellent. My question is HOW excellent.

 

I have had one on order for months now and i did not even place the order a friend did , I guess he knows me too well .LOL

 

The bottom line is the image and this is the MAIN reason why i have the DMR , it simply buries everything else in these terms. It may not be a Canon or Nikon with there AF and bells and whistles but as a Pro i sell images not features and that is what this M8 will come down to also and that is the image. i keep hearing well i can buy a 5d and many lenses for the cost of the M8 and lenses. My response if you think that way than please go visit your local canon store this is not about costs. If you have no idea what Leica is than run away because once you get that ONE lens and start shooting with it your a dead in the wool Leica fan. I have written and talked about the DMR for many months now and many folks have gone out and bought one from the writings of many on my long winded thread and truth be told no one sold it because they did not like it. The M8 will be a huge success for Leica and even more important for the folks that buy them. Now we wait, this is the part that really sucks.

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[sean_reid]

Though, presumably Sean, any firmware changes can only affect the sequences used to change the ISO and EV, the display has only a 3 digit display for the frame counter and limited "character set", so couldn't be used to provide an option to the user such as "What do you want to display on the top panel, memory, ISO or EV?".

 

Hi Mark,

 

I believe that's true. My suggestions assume that the top LCD display is a fixed design that cannot show revised displays just with a firmware change but I'll be delighted if that's wrong. My focus has been on just speeding up the camera's digital settings via what's possible with firmware. Again, it won't happen for current cameras but it could happen down the line as a firmware install.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[baloo]

If you have no idea what Leica is than run away because once you get that ONE lens and start shooting with it your a dead in the wool Leica fan.

 

This statement is dead on, that what happen to me 5 year ago and since them I’m poor but happy with my m and soon m8

[grober]

I'm anxious to get my M8 and am disappointed that AT A MINIMUM it will not show the ISO setting.,

 

After many years of shooting Tri-X and then Fuji NPH, I think mostly at 400 ASA. So with my M8 I'll set the speed as close to 400 as the camera will allow and start shooting.

 

THEN we can evaluate and adjust accordingly.

 

(I've already decided my first M8 shot will be through a cloudy but still fun-to-use 50mm Summar. Seems to be a perfect act of poetry and mating of the old with the new.)

[galavanter]

On my D 70 S DSLR iso is to far away in the menu to change instantly, on an M it could, should be as easy as possible to change.

 

Hello all,

First post here. A digital RF may be in my future. Really great forum.Hey frc I have a D70. With the LCD off push and hold the middle of the 5 vertical buttons while turning thumbwheel. Top lcd goes blank except for ISO value which thumbwheel changes. Piece a cake.

 

But I really wanted to add to this discussion that, as you may well know, every new Nikon from the D50 to D2X has AUTO ISO. It's great!

Nikon obviously realizes that in digital, ISO IS the third variable in exposure just like Sean is saying.You simply set in the menu the MIN shutter speed you will permit the camera to use and the MAX ISO you will allow it to use. The camera does the rest, keeping the lowest ISO until it reaches your MIN shutter, then it bumps it up. I keep my D70 set to a minimum shutter of 1/60 (depending on movement) and max 1600 ISO. I use it in aperture priority mode, which the M8 has!

This fellow Peter Marshall explains it very well here. Check out his title:

Auto ISO – the New Paradigm

I'm getting in over my head here, I know the lenses are manual, but doesn't this all work off the meter reading? The M8 already adjusts the shutter speed electronically in aperture mode, why not the ISO too? Within the users preset parameters of course. You don't have to worry about ISO anymore! But of course, like all the Nikons, you can turn it off if you want.

Like someone else said above, from the street to low light. This seems tailor made for the digital rangefinder. I wasn't even aware my D70 had auto iso until I read about it on Ken Rockwell's site. Anyway that's my input and for my 5 grand that is what I would VERY MUCH like Leica to do. Can it be done? Couldn't a firmware upgrade do it?

[MP3]

What you suggest on the auto-ISO mechanism (min shutter speed & max iso) seems entirely logical and easy to implement a firmware upgrade.

 

Before Leica give us the 'iso adjustment dial' and 'in viewfinder iso parameter display', I agree this is a simple workout in the mid!

 

Best

Matthew

[waterlenz]

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Hello all,

First post here. A digital RF may be in my future. Really great forum.Hey frc I have a D70. With the LCD off push and hold the middle of the 5 vertical buttons while turning thumbwheel. Top lcd goes blank except for ISO value which thumbwheel changes. Piece a cake.

 

But I really wanted to add to this discussion that, as you may well know, every new Nikon from the D50 to D2X has AUTO ISO. It's great!

Nikon obviously realizes that in digital, ISO IS the third variable in exposure just like Sean is saying.You simply set in the menu the MIN shutter speed you will permit the camera to use and the MAX ISO you will allow it to use. The camera does the rest, keeping the lowest ISO until it reaches your MIN shutter, then it bumps it up. I keep my D70 set to a minimum shutter of 1/60 (depending on movement) and max 1600 ISO. I use it in aperture priority mode, which the M8 has!

This fellow Peter Marshall explains it very well here. Check out his title:

Auto ISO – the New Paradigm

I'm getting in over my head here, I know the lenses are manual, but doesn't this all work off the meter reading? The M8 already adjusts the shutter speed electronically in aperture mode, why not the ISO too? Within the users preset parameters of course. You don't have to worry about ISO anymore! But of course, like all the Nikons, you can turn it off if you want.

Like someone else said above, from the street to low light. This seems tailor made for the digital rangefinder. I wasn't even aware my D70 had auto iso until I read about it on Ken Rockwell's site. Anyway that's my input and for my 5 grand that is what I would VERY MUCH like Leica to do. Can it be done? Couldn't a firmware upgrade do it?

 

 

I have four Nikon dSLRs and have thus far NEVER used auto ISO not even while 'dry-firing'. Different strokes for different folks. I think the easiest way to change exposure with the M8 will be to shoot the old fashioned way, with or without built in meters - by changing the shutter speed or aperture - it is not rocket science. For example, post-chimping it is simply a matter of changing one or the other according to the situation - one gets pretty good at guessing how much adjustment needs to be made by reading the histogram - effectively a super-zone system. Easy to check your correction chimping the next shot, and so on.

Tom

[MP3]

I would incline to second on galaventer and my idea on #65 and #66 if I wish a more responsive photo taking style and as less post-processing as possible. I believe everyone of us would dream for a perfect out of the camera image quality rather than treaking here and there in the PP workflow with tons of duplicated 10MB files generated again and again. My 2 cents.

 

Best

Matthew

[petermcwerner]

I believe everyone of us would dream for a perfect out of the camera image quality rather than tweaking here and there in the PP workflow with tons of duplicated 10MB files generated again and again.

 

The best way for that sort of photography is a 8x10 view camera, where you can spend many minutes tweaking illumination, position of objects, etc., checking the result on the groundglass. Hardly my ideal.

 

And, before digital, didn’t you postprocess in the wet darkroom by selecting the paper gradation, exposure time, developer and developing time and by dodging and burning,? In my experience, making a good print in the wet darkroom took much longer than with the “digital darkroom”.

 

Peter

[MP3]

Thank you Peter, though I have no prior experience in 8x10 shooting or my own darkroom processing yet. Would like to definitely.

 

All I mean here, after some thoughts on current M8 ergonomics as many discussed here, is I do perceive a more responsive ISO switch which facilitate my eye to stay at the viewfinder as long as I can while shooting, would be great. And this is align with M shooting philosophy - concentrate only on the most essentials.

 

Best

Matthew

[peterv]

It may not be a Canon or Nikon with there AF and bells and whistles but as a Pro i sell images not features

 

I fully agree, good point

 

Cheers,

 

Peter

[galavanter]

I have four Nikon dSLRs and have thus far NEVER used auto ISO not even while 'dry-firing'.

 

Good for you. Maybe you should try it before dismissing it out of hand.

 

Different strokes for different folks. I think the easiest way to change exposure with the M8 will be to shoot the old fashioned way, with or without built in meters - by changing the shutter speed or aperture - it is not rocket science.

 

That statement contradicts itself. How can having to change aperture or shutter speed be "easier" than not having to do anything at all? Now if you WANT to, that's cool, but it is certainly not easier, or faster.

 

For example, post-chimping it is simply a matter of changing one or the other according to the situation - one gets pretty good at guessing how much adjustment needs to be made by reading the histogram - effectively a super-zone system. Easy to check your correction chimping the next shot, and so on.

 

Chimping? Histogram? Not very "old fashioned". The M8 is a digital rangefinder, not film. ISO is every bit as important as shutter speed and aperture since it is variable in a digital camera. Auto ISO is no different nor any more heretical than AUTO shutter speed, which the film M7 and digital M8 have in aperture priority. I would guess that you were not in favor of AUTO shutter speed being introduced in the M7 either, which again is cool, but to condemn (with a smiley face no less) a mere software addition that you can ignore and never use (not even while dry-firing) is kinda silly to me.

 

I understand and appreciate the Leica tradition. If people want to keep using their film Leicas I have nothing but respect for that. But I am very happy to see Leica introduce a digital M (notice I didn't say "go digital"). Even an amateur like myself knows that one of the largest concerns of digital camera users is having to lose time or shots by going into the menu to change a setting. I hope the others suggestions concerning the M8 "frame counter" can be implemented. Even if they are, I would hope that auto iso is too.

[ulphoto]

I too have been using the DMR for documentry and news work as well as nature work and am truly amazed at the results. I've used the Digilux 2 for quite a while for newswork. So needless to say I want to use the M-8 with my collection of M lenses. Since my Leica dealer of 30 years retired I haven't figured out where I can get an M-8 in some kind of resonable time. I'd appreciate any recommendations - though I know some may be reluctant to reveal their especially precious source of Leica gear.

[waterlenz]

Good for you. Maybe you should try it before dismissing it out of hand.

1.

That statement contradicts itself. How can having to change aperture or shutter speed be "easier" than not having to do anything at all? Now if you WANT to, that's cool, but it is certainly not easier, or faster.

2.

Chimping? Histogram? Not very "old fashioned".

3.

The M8 is a digital rangefinder, not film. ISO is every bit as important as shutter speed and aperture since it is variable in a digital camera.

4.

Auto ISO is no different nor any more heretical than AUTO shutter speed, which the film M7 and digital M8 have in aperture priority.

5.

I would guess that you were not in favor of AUTO shutter speed being introduced in the M7 either, which again is cool, but to condemn (with a smiley face no less) a mere software addition that you can ignore and never use (not even while dry-firing) is kinda silly to me.

6.

I understand and appreciate the Leica tradition. If people want to keep using their film Leicas I have nothing but respect for that. But I am very happy to see Leica introduce a digital M (notice I didn't say "go digital"). Even an amateur like myself knows that one of the largest concerns of digital camera users is having to lose time or shots by going into the menu to change a setting. I hope the others suggestions concerning the M8 "frame counter" can be implemented. Even if they are, I would hope that auto iso is too. 7.

 

 

1. It is about loss of control. I would rather have my brain making the decisions than a computer program.

2. It is about the craft of photography - using one's brain to alter one or the other according the results one desires. I often find it easier to do things manually than to defeat the automation (for example when using Microsoft Word).

3. No, this is the novel aspect. But in a way it replaces spot-metering and the zone system. One gets a 'zone-system' albeit with many more zones in a histogram.

4. Roger!!

5. Actually I do not use AE all that much. I suspect I will not use it much with the M8 in particular. (More likely to with a dSLR with A, S and P mode choices).

6. I may try it with my D2X as I understand there have been some improvements in the implementation to put limits on where the ISO goes. My philosophy is to use the minimal ISO at all times. I tend to use the baseline ISO and only push it when absolutely necessary.

7. Maybe in the M9 or M10?

Tom

[Rona!d]

Funny, i did this some weeks ago

 

(I've already decided my first M8 shot will be through a cloudy but still fun-to-use 50mm Summar. Seems to be a perfect act of poetry and mating of the old with the new.)

[frc]

Hi Galavanter,

 

 

Being a film shooter it never got to my mind to search the manual for this function, I hate reading manuals.

But the whole discussion on features of the M8 has made me realise there's a lot of options on my Nikon I have not found yet that could be beneficial to my photography.

As I mentioned before, ther is a significant difference in using a film or digi camera.

Not just in the " keyboard shortcuts " as you just taught me one but in the whole concept of thinking.

This again makes me express, Leica tried to much to please the old school shooters and forsaked to go for a real inovative camera.

I do hope software updates as mentioned will be available in the near future.

 

 

regards,

 

 

Fr.

[stunsworth]

Funny, i did this some weeks ago

 

As the owner of a 1930's Summar can I just say how dissapointed I was not to be the first to think of this :-)

[Guest stevenrk]

Agree entirely with the notion of keeping it simple -- even in a digtal age -- and accepting that the M8 is meant to be a fast manual camera -- in the sense of manually setting shutter/fstop, not manual in the full sense of no lighmeter. (Which is why I also understand the concern about the reliance on the digital screen for basic operating info.)

 

But am I missing something, or will we not be able to see by how much a particular fstop/suhtter speed will be under or over exposing the shot?

 

What I'm asking is whether there is anything in the viewfinder that is more than just a light for over or under exposure? Is there the equivalent of what I've had in every camera that I can think of -- a sense ( a needle over and under the center spot) or specific measure (any modern day digital, including the RD-1) of where you are in relation to spot on exposure without having to go to spot on and then counting? Must be missing something. Because otherwise every time you shift the image/light you have to readjust exposure from scratch -- instead of for example being able to see that a particular change of framing will put you a stop and a half under from the previous shot and then acting to adjust as needed.

 

Could anyone who'se looked through the viewfinder explain what I'm missing from the info presented in the viewfinder, and thank you in advance.

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