More M8 Hands-On Impressions

[kidigital]

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David at Dale Labs posted his impressions yesterday of an M8 he used around South Florida several weeks ago. While he is unable to talk about image quality ... he does talk about his overall impressions of the M8. It's another good source of information.

 

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

 

Kurt

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[sean_reid]

Hi Kurt.

 

I was with the author until he got to this:

 

"Want the change the ISO? Press the SET button, which is in easy reach of your left thumb, select the setting with your right thumb and you’re done. No fiddling or moving your hands from their natural position on the camera."

 

Note the picture he uses to illustrate. Apparently, "the natural position" is holding the body of the camera with hands on either side, the lens pointed to the ground and the whole assembly supported by a neck strap. That's not the quite the way I would use an M.

 

Natural position, I would argue, is: eye at the finder, left hand holding the lens barrel from below (to control focus and aperture), right hand grasping the body with the index finger over the shutter release.

 

BTW, the actual procedure for changing ISO currently involves three more steps than he suggests.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[cbretteville]

Thanks for the link Kurt.

 

Note the picture he uses to illustrate. Apparently, "the natural position" is holding the body of the camera with hands on either side, the lens pointed to the ground and the whole assembly supported by a neck strap. That's not the quite the way I would use an M.

I beleive that snap is supposed to illustrate making setting changes, not "use" the M for shooting. If you're good enough Sean, to get the ISO changed while your eye is looking through the finder I tip my virtual hat to you.

 

- Carl

[robsteve]

Sean:

 

I think this ISO setting thing has been overblown. I have been shooting digitals since the Kodak DCS520/ D2000 and all have required at least two hands to change the ISO. I think the mantra starting with the Kodak DCS series and moving to the Canon 1D series is that a professional Digital should require two hands to change important things like ISO or deleting files so these thing cannot be done accidentally by the buttons being inadvertently pressed or bumped.

 

I also don't change the ISO that often. I set it for the conditions and I seldom move it.

 

A quick Exposure comp change method would probably be more useful if they could only make one change to the firmware.

[sean_reid]

Sean:

 

I also don't change the ISO that often. I set it for the conditions and I seldom move it.

 

A quick Exposure comp change method would probably be more useful if they could only make one change to the firmware.

 

But that's *your* style. Some of us change ISO quite a bit. In any case, if the EV and ISO controls work well for you, that's great. My job is just to describe a camera accurately when I review it, you can then decide on how important the various strengths/weaknesses I raise are to you. But I wouldn't assume that because ISO control is unimportant to you, it will be for other photographers as well. Some don't care about EV control...etc. We all have our own priorities based on how we work. Ergonomics will always be a high priority for me.

 

I take it that you haven't actually worked with an M8 yet so you can decided for yourself about these controls once you have one in your hands.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Thanks for the link Kurt.

 

 

I beleive that snap is supposed to illustrate making setting changes, not "use" the M for shooting. If you're good enough Sean, to get the ISO changed while your eye is looking through the finder I tip my virtual hat to you.

 

- Carl

 

Carl,

 

You may have missed my point.The most ergonomic camera designs, in my opinion, allow one to change important settings without taking his or her eye from the finder. The M8 does not allow that but it should. But, as I said to Rob (and as I said in the review), if one doesn't change ISO or EV correction very often, The M8's design for this is not an issue. In the review, I tried to be careful to describe how these control designs might or might not affect a given photographer, what some workarounds could be, etc.

 

Sean

[rosuna]

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Sean is absolutely right, of course, but I don't change ISO very often. A simple and fast way to change it is convenient, but it is not as important to me as it is for other people.

 

I am very satisfied with the design of the camera and my only doubt is how good is the image quality (color, dynamic range, noise, real resolution...).

[robsteve]

But that's *your* style. Some of us change ISO quite a bit.

 

Sean:

 

I maybe have been a bit more clear and skipped my own opinion.

 

What I was trying to say is using two hands to change ISO is convention of professional digitals and Leica is just keeping with the tradition.

 

Robert

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Robert maybe with ISO and yes that is they way some are but still one hand would be better and certainly one hand camera in face for EV, no question on that one. i say put that dial and arrows to use , you right thumb is sitting right on that spot and if they want to add a confirm than the protect button can be used. But i don't think we need a confirm for EV just the ISO in my opinion.

[sean_reid]

Sean:

 

I maybe have been a bit more clear and skipped my own opinion.

 

What I was trying to say is using two hands to change ISO is convention of professional digitals and Leica is just keeping with the tradition.

 

Robert

 

Hi Robert,

 

When you get a chance to use the M8, you'll find that changing ISO on it is different than changing ISO on, say, my Canon 1Ds, a Nikon D200, etc. No need to recap a more detailed discussion of this here since that's already in the review.

 

Let's discuss this further once you've had a chance to work with an M8. Until then, there's too much potential for confusion. Once you've used it, you'll be more familiar with the aspects that myself and some other reviewers have criticized and then can decide for yourself if it's problematic for your working style.

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Sean is absolutely right, of course, but I don't change ISO very often. A simple and fast way to change it is convenient, but it is not as important to me as it is for other people.

 

I am very satisfied with the design of the camera and my only doubt is how good is the image quality (color, dynamic range, noise, real resolution...).

 

Hi Ruben,

 

In that case, I think you may end up a happy man.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[chrism]

Being a humble amateur, I don't use EV compensation controls. When my subject is back lit and I have auto exposure I always focus, point down to something that looks like it should require the right exposure, half press the shutter to lock this exposure, recompose and shoot. Mostly, it works. Probably quicker than fiddling with menus, and it doesn't leave things inappropriately set for the next shot, which would mean more menu fiddling to undo.

 

Chris

[bradreiman]

is that multi finder thing as hideous in person as it looks in that photo? otherwise everything looks very promising...b

[bradreiman]

is that multi finder thing as hideous in person as it looks in that photo? otherwise everything looks very promising...b

[rosuna]

Hi Ruben,

 

In that case, I think you may end up a happy man.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

... but a poorer one...

 

Did you see the technical data of the 28/2,8 ASPH just published by Leica?

 

Looking at the MTF graphs, the lens' performance seems to be comparable to the Summicron's, except for the borders and corners. The half of the diagonal of the M8 sensor is 16mm. Until that distance, both lenses are similar. I think the 28/2 ASPH is a better and faster lens, but bigger and much more expensive.

[MP3]

Being a humble amateur, I don't use EV compensation controls. When my subject is back lit and I have auto exposure I always focus, point down to something that looks like it should require the right exposure, half press the shutter to lock this exposure, recompose and shoot. Mostly, it works. Probably quicker than fiddling with menus, and it doesn't leave things inappropriately set for the next shot, which would mean more menu fiddling to undo.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris

 

Glad to know somebody is doing the same way as I do =)

 

Best

Matthew

[jlm]

Sean, Guy:

can you give a typical example of a situation where you would need to change ISO quickly while shooting? like a few others, I rarely change ISO, so maybe I am missing something.

[sean_reid]

Sean, Guy:

can you give a typical example of a situation where you would need to change ISO quickly while shooting? like a few others, I rarely change ISO, so maybe I am missing something.

 

Sure, I was doing a series recently at the Tunbridge fair in Vermont. I wanted to keep a minimum of F/8 at 1/250 for the exposures using the lowest ISO possible for each. As the subject lighting changed, I varied the ISO.

 

If you look over posts on professional photography forums over the last few years, you'll see various discussions about ISO as "the third exposure control". Habits take time to change. Many of us had decades with roll film cameras and are used to thinking of ISO as a constant because it had to be fixed (for 36 exp. or thereabouts). But ISO, shutter speed and aperture all interact, of course, and one can choose to keep any two of the three as a constant. Digital is a new medium and it allows new possibilities in the way we work. I've been working professionally with digital for seven years now and so I've had some time to adapt my methods according to new controls that are available.

 

There are various ways for one to compensate exposure, other than EV, and I discuss that in the article. I'll let Guy speak for himself but I find comp. to be useful when I'm doing a series of pictures which I want exposed more or less than the meter might want. Can't one just switch to manual shutter speeds for that? Of course and that's often what I do. But each method for tweaking exposures has its pros and cons depending on subject lighting, changeability, etc.

 

Here's the thing. In my mind, the tail should not wag the dog in camera design. The camera should quickly and easily do what the photographer wants, not the other way around. There are millions of photographers and each has his or her own working methods. Good camera design, in my opinion, is flexible enough to accomodate a wide range of those methods (within certain constraints, naturally).

 

There are currently some constants in the design of most professional digital cameras that exist for a reason. Two of these constants are that ISO and EV comp. are displayed either in the finder or on a settings LCD (not the large LCD) and can be changed in one step (press A and turn B simultaneously, for example).

 

So, improving these controls and improving weather sealing are two areas that I would like to see Leica concentrate on for the next version of this camera. In the meantime, firmware could be tweaked to speed some of these processes and that may indeed happen via a firmware release (I've sent specific ideas to Leica as outlined in the review). Does that mean the M8 isn't a wonderful camera? Of course not. I've worked with two of them and am buying a black body for myself. It's a marvelous camera. But, just because a camera is a Leica doesn't mean that there can't be areas for improvement.

 

Guy, do you want to chime in again?

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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[sean_reid]

is that multi finder thing as hideous in person as it looks in that photo? otherwise everything looks very promising...b

 

I actually didn't mind the design at all when I handled it at a meeting. But I do believe that pretty is as pretty does. It's not as pretty as the M8 but I, personally, don't mind that. It is large, though, and that might make the 21/24/28 a better option for some of us.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[wparsonsgisnet]

I'm anxious to get my M8 and am disappointed that AT A MINIMUM it will not show the ISO setting.

 

I was hoping that Leica would make this a manual (that is, exterior) setting, as it is on the M's that I have that have meters in them. Failing that, I really wish that ISO were immediately visible to the photographer.

 

This particular failing has become a real thorn in my side with the D2. I find I am constantly taking pictures with an ISO setting from a previous session, and that I would have changed it before shooting if I had realized what the setting was.

 

That said, I expect I will get used to dealing with this problem in the M8.

 

Let's get those firmware updates done so the camera can ship.

 

Regards to all,