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Micro 4/3 an alternative to digital M? (Merged)

Vieri

By Vieri
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audidudi

audidudi

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1. Can Micro 4/3 beat the size of the DP1?

2. Can Micro 4/3 beat the image quality of the DP1?

 

As a former DP-1 owner and a current DMC-L1 owner, I have actually compared the IQ of the two and IMO, it's a close call. The DP-1 does some things very, very well, but the same is true for the L1 relative to the DP-1 (i.e., have you seen Foveon red aka pink?!) Personally, if I could have a camera that uses either sensor with a Digilux 2 form-factor, similar quality lens, and a better EVF, then I would be a very happy man indeed!

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sdai

sdai

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I think that you have a narrow view of "those wanting a compact size camera". Oly's press release indicates that they are targeting those folks with digicams (about 92 million of them) and who wont buy a DSLR because it is too big and heavy. Since you and I aren't in that target group, our comments pro or con are just dust in the wind, to the Oly marketing types, who might end up laughing all the way to the bank.

Your comment about the Digilux 2 might actually "place" micro 4/3rds in Leica's line up. It is the natural evolution step, bigger sensor and interchangeable (small) lenses. Several people who have seen the prototype lenses say they are about half the size of the regular 4/3rds lenses. In that photo that you posted, the lens on the left is one of the two kit lenses 40-150mm and it is tiny. So a smaller Digilux-4mft handled by the consumer camera div. at Leica, with a set of tiny kit lenses, may be where this is going and you don't have anything to worry about in your photo world.

Bob

 

1. The Micro 4/3 is NOT a DSLR so the DSLR folks can safely pass it.

2. In terms of size, the current flock of compact DSLRs adopting APS-C size sensors are very comparable to the 4/3 DSLRs.

3. Who can guarantee how many of those 92 million digicam users will want this thing? That number is very questionable and it's based on totally assumption that the digicam has no advantage when compared to this thing?

 

Like I've mentioned in my last post.

 

1. Can Micro 4/3 beat the size of DP1?

2. Can Micro 4/3 beat the image quality of DP1?

 

and now I'm going to add:

 

3. How can Olympus/Panasonic be so sure that the digicam users will buy into a interchangeable lens system?

 

I mean:

 

This thing is obviously not pocketable, and it obviously can't do serious job like a normal DSLR can do. Plus, it will have NO price advantage neither to a consumer level DSLR nor to a serious high end digicam.

 

There's an article on today's DC Watch, one of guys who actually is a member of the 4/3 standard committee admits the Micro 4/3 adopts the concept of Pentax's Auto-110, which was never a hot sale. In the mean time, O and P announces the new system "in anticipation" to a number of "technology advancement" in AF, sensor and microprocessor, in other words ... it's a standard built on sand.

 

Leica could gain nothing if they risk rebadging such a product. Now the whole world knows about the trick it's basically a Panasonic product with nothing magical, who wants to pay for the 2x premium except those who must have a red dot on anything?

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sdai

sdai

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As a former DP-1 owner and a current DMC-L1 owner, I have actually compared the IQ of the two and IMO, it's a close call. The DP-1 does some things very, very well, but the same is true for the L1 relative to the DP-1 (i.e., have you seen Foveon red aka pink?!) Personally, if I could have a camera that uses either sensor with a Digilux 2 form-factor, similar quality lens, and a better EVF, then I would be a very happy man indeed!

 

I haven't owned either the DP1 or the L1, but I have briefly played with both at my dealer friends' place, I agree with you that it could be a tie game at base ISO but starting from ISO 200 and especially from ISO 400, the DP1 wins hands down IMHO, the DP1 can also easily beat the newer L10 at ISO200 and above. Beside, the DP1 is more versatile due to its size.

 

I mean, if Olympus wants to do a great compact camera, then beat the DP1, if they want to do a serious DSLR, then beat the D300 or 40D (at least).

 

There's no middle way, O and P can't compete in either of the higher and lower ends and now start dreaming of creating a new market of their own plus betting on the customers pocket books as their Disneyland venture capital? give me a coffee.

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Guest stnami

Guest stnami

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Makes you a mental giant sdai spending all this time getting you G-String strung up in the wrong places ........ it's a fancy point and shoot for a specific market that you are not part of.

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staubrey

staubrey

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There would no place for a proper rangefinder in this damn camera, it'll only focus by contrast, there's nothing fancy about this, the Sigma DP1, Sony R1 and probably another bunch of point and shooters introduced at the Kina will all have bigger sensors than this one.

 

Why would someone bother to change lenses for a pocket camera? so they screwed 4/3 by themselves, I'm waiting to see how they'll screw this one 2 years later.

 

Manual focus (including hyperfocal) with LCD or EVF Live View confirmation sounds ok to me. And more direct than an RF. And less expensive than an M8. Quality of output? Olympus glass is good, quality of sensor output good through ISO 400, and for most folks 8 X 10 is as large as they'll want to go, so that size sensor should be ok. I think it is a niche that a lot of folks would be willing to look at. Probably a more sizable niche than that currently held by digital Leica owners.

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Riley

Riley

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1. Can Micro 4/3 beat the size of DP1?

 

difference between 4/3rds and foveon

foveon is:

20.7mm x 13.8mm, 24.8783mm (DIAG) 43.3/24.8783 = 1.74, area of 285sqmm

create a hypothetical 4x3 foveon of the same area as the APSC

a 4x3 version would be 19.52 x 14.64, 24.4mm (DIAG) 285sqmm

the difference linearly then is 8.4% between 4/3rds and foveon APSC

answer: yes

 

2. Can Micro 4/3 beat the image quality of DP1?

 

foveon has the handle on outdoor low iso, it can take on most dSLRS in this area

it cant compete with 4/3rds beyond iso400, its just too noisy

generally IQ isnt going to be a big factor unless

you need higher iso,

a faster lens,

a longer or wider lens,

a larger image spatially

you prefer to shoot jpeg

 

3. How can Olympus/Panasonic be so sure that the digicam users will buy into a interchangeable lens system?

 

we have discussed this here already many times in the guise of a D2 update

conversations that as i recall it, you took little or no part in

reception of this format appears to be welcomed by a broad spectrum

those with SLRs who require something more convenient as an everyday carry gun.

those that fit the profile of a traveller seeking some quality without bulk

those looking to move up from compacts (which are mostly dull and boring anyway)

 

there are side issues with DP1 in particular that require coverage

people have been expressing some unhappiness about control aspects, software and delay issues, others stayed away due to the lens limitations. The sum of the parts is probably best described by the cons in the dpreview

 

Sigma DP1 Review: 21. Conclusion: Digital Photography Review

* Desaturated and 'flat' JPEG output

* Some chroma noise even at base ISO, lots of it at higher sensitivities

* Unreliable White Balance (and poor color in low light)

* Generally very slow, very long read/write and processing times

* Unimpressive shutter lag

* Continuous mode only allows three shots per burst

* Very slow Auto-Focus

* Auto Focus gives up completely very quickly in low light (and there is no AF help light)

* 28mm fix focal length limits applications (but you know that before you buy)

* Lens prone to flare (using the optional lens hood helps)

* Red channel clipping

* Low resolution screen that is also prone to reflections and smearing

* Preview and playback view are both inaccurate (but in different ways)

* Low refresh rate results in slightly jerky live preview image

* Preview image turns monochrome in low light

* Longwinded menu structure, few external controls (plus almost redundant zoom buttons)

* Black writing on black buttons hardly readable

* Battery life not impressive, indicator not very precise

* Underpowered Flash, slightly unreliable flash exposure and slow flash recycling

* No live histogramm

* No highlight warning in review mode

* Image parameters cover only small spectrum

* Low quality video recording

* Gridlines cannot be diplayed in Manual Focus mode

* Quite heavy vignetting at F4

* You can't shoot RAW and JPEG (only one or the other)

* No macro mode

* Highest sensitivity only ISO 800

 

a look around dp confirms these views, while DP1 is an obvious competitor, mFT probably would be more user friendly and have better brand recognition.

the market population is an intersect between compact and dSLR users

probably no other camera type could hold such a broad range of potential

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Riley

Riley

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So mandatory EVF?

 

yes, much like any P&S

we are attempting to get clarification that there will be an accessory EVF much like Ricoh has. But Oly are being pretty tight about it, Pany dont respond at all. There is a meeting planned with Olympus somewhere soon, so we hope to gain more information from that, they are saying though, no questions on hard developments.

 

Pretty much nobody saw this coming although the potential has been noticed for sometime.

 

This is an aside, I cant help wondering about one thing, the collaboration of Fuji. We think there are negotiations re some sort of merger between Fuji and Nikon, I keep thinking that mFT is more up Fuji's street and wonder if the release of inf on this format is in conjunction with 'efforts' to bring them into the fold, and away from nikon. when you think about it, a juncture between Olympus Panasonic and Fuji would be a devastating capability.

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FastFashnReloaded

FastFashnReloaded

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You know, I think I realize why the M5 didn't take off. You people, like so many people who buy high-end "name" products, like Porsche, like Ducati, are snobs. Everything has to fit in your own tiny little world view.

 

How depressing. The M series of RFs should have gone auto-focus a long time ago, but you couldn't have that, could you? Leica should have gone digital long before it did, but you all hung on to film as long as you could. Partnerships with Japanese companies that "dilute" the holy essence of Leica? Sacrilege!

 

Adopt or Leica dies, people. Get off your high horses.

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Bob Ross

Bob Ross

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1. The Micro 4/3 is NOT a DSLR so the DSLR folks can safely pass it.

2. In terms of size, the current flock of compact DSLRs adopting APS-C size sensors are very comparable to the 4/3 DSLRs.

3. Who can guarantee how many of those 92 million digicam users will want this thing? That number is very questionable and it's based on totally assumption that the digicam has no advantage when compared to this thing?

 

Like I've mentioned in my last post.

 

1. Can Micro 4/3 beat the size of DP1?

2. Can Micro 4/3 beat the image quality of DP1?

 

and now I'm going to add:

 

3. How can Olympus/Panasonic be so sure that the digicam users will buy into a interchangeable lens system?

 

I mean:

 

This thing is obviously not pocketable, and it obviously can't do serious job like a normal DSLR can do. Plus, it will have NO price advantage neither to a consumer level DSLR nor to a serious high end digicam.

 

There's an article on today's DC Watch, one of guys who actually is a member of the 4/3 standard committee admits the Micro 4/3 adopts the concept of Pentax's Auto-110, which was never a hot sale. In the mean time, O and P announces the new system "in anticipation" to a number of "technology advancement" in AF, sensor and microprocessor, in other words ... it's a standard built on sand.

 

Leica could gain nothing if they risk rebadging such a product. Now the whole world knows about the trick it's basically a Panasonic product with nothing magical, who wants to pay for the 2x premium except those who must have a red dot on anything?

1.) Dslr folk might want a silent camera for some situations. A specialized tool?

2.) This is not 4/3rds it is Micr 4/3rds the current flock may seem obese members of the overall flock, to a buyer.

3.) To a marketing type a 20% penatration into the potential 92 million customers would be good. That is around 18.4 million. Even half that would beat the sales of DSLRs.

1.} DP-1 size? I wonder if a soccer mom would care:p But, using the same form factor....LCD + fixed focal length, it is quite likely it could be smaller, given that Oly & Pany both have mor experience in miniature P&S cameras.

2.} Image quality of the DP-1 is open to a lot of discussion. Consumers will not want to do post processing to "get the best" out of their snap shots, like the rest of us compulsives....

3.} Some buyer will buy a kit with one lens, like they do now with the entry level DSLRs. No change likely there. Maybe built on sand, but they know more about where the sand comes from, than you and I do. I suspect that they have timed this with the arrival of the first shipment of sand. "Sand boats are a comin' we'll have plenty of grit to play in...."

Will it be pocketable? Who knows? How big are your pockets?

Kodak's 110 film and all the cameras that used it suffered from the format limitations. I actually tried to make an 8 X 10 from a 110 frame in my dark room, even made a custom negative carrier. That was a frustrating experience:rolleyes: With digital we can make 8 X 10s from sensors ¼ the size and it would take an experienced photographer to tell the difference between it an a APS-C DSLR. I have done that, without much frustration at all. The sales of the Pentax 110 are not relevant, we have a new media.

Whether Leica is in or out will have to do with whether they want a consumer line of cameras to promote the Leica brand. Think of it as a form of advertising. Put the Red Dot on anything that moves photographically and get noticed, especially if pretty people are using it, which probably leaves you and I out. :D

Bob

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FastFashnReloaded

FastFashnReloaded

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1. The Micro 4/3 is NOT a DSLR so the DSLR folks can safely pass it.... blah blah blah

 

You are, as always, completely negative about everything. Is there anything at all that you are ever happy about? :mad:

 

Ever?

 

Glad some people have open minds, and are willing to try new things.

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FastFashnReloaded

FastFashnReloaded

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1.) ...

Kodak's 110 film and all the cameras that used it suffered from the format limitations.... :D

Bob

 

Mostly 110 cameras suffered from LENS limitations. As in, the lenses sucked. That said, they pocket-ability was great and the cams were fun.

 

Digital is not film, and four thirds has many times the rez of 110, and heaven knows the lenses are excellent. It is funny to hear people laud cams like the G9 with its lousy OVF and then knock something like the E-420. :eek:

 

Over to Sdai the a__hat. :cool:

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daveleo

daveleo

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nicely stated, FastFashnReloaded.

 

Leica needs a shot of moxie and i hope they dazzle everyone at photokina.... with a micro4/3 body capable of adapting "legacy" Leica lenses (and others!).

 

maybe not the best camera Leica ever made, or the best sensor, maybe not the best specs ever, but a hot little setup for sure.

 

regards

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sdai

sdai

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You people, like so many people who buy high-end "name" products, like Porsche, like Ducati, are snobs.

 

You guys are really pathetic, lad.

 

So why do you want Leica to rebadge a Micro 4/3 camera when you can pick up one from Olympus or Panasonic for half price?

 

Are you really in desperate need for the red dot to cure your inferiority complex because of using a lesser brand?

 

Work hard, be smart, stay away from your computer ... you can also make enough money to pay for a Porsche, or a Ducati.

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