4/3 Sensors

[jrethorst]

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I'd like to get into a 4/3 system, and have been looking at the Oly 510 -- modern design, nice viewfinder, good features, light. I'd get the body only and some Leica lenses to go with it.

 

But --

 

it (and the new Panasonic L10, and the pro Oly E3 for that matter) have a 10mp sensor. The Digilux 3 and Panasonic L1 have a 7.5mp sensor. All are the same physical size (4/3).

 

In the Digilux 2 threads (I have one, and the Leica glow is why I want to go with Leica glass in 4/3), some people suggest that the exceptional IQ has to do with a large physical sensor size for its 5mp resolution.

 

The same logic suggests that a 7.5mp 4/3 sensor might have better IQ than a 10mp.

 

Your thoughts welcome.

[rsolomon]

i have and R9 and recently sold my DMR to position for purchasing the R10.

 

i have owned a digilux 2 for years -- i love the camera and the convience - it captures light beutifully - the lens and the firmware are magical.

 

As a gap camera i bought a Digilux 3, giving me the opportunity to use my R lenses and take advantage or AF and Zoom when/as needed. I love this camera as well.

 

So now i wonder what if anything do ? i would like a few items not offered by either the DMR oe the D3. ie : 5-10 fps, better jpeg quality at higher iso (800 and above) to name two.

 

I am very much looking forward to learning about the R10(no info available) , however, i find myself wanting to learn more about the Digilux 4 (no news at all). Sometimes i beleive that leica will merge the 2 SLR systems and offer only one. i try to keep forefront that leica is about lenses ...NOT cameras, so the ability to use the high quaility kit lens (14-55 pana/leica) along with my various R lenses is just simply a pleasure and a priority.

 

i am also interested in the Oly but have decided i will wait until the fall when leica unveils the "R10" and hopefully the Digilux 4. For me in my situation i am not in a rush - i was in a rush but my daughter recently sprained her ankle and will be out the rest of the gymnastics season ...... fast moving indoor sports with poor lighting is truly a challenege ...until next season im good. By dec 2008 i will look to better address that photograpic need

 

Assuming the featuers are there ( better jpegs at 800 iso and higher and a bit more speed) and if the Digilux 4 maintains its "M" styling gets a little smaller and even more M like (physically) i will be hard pressed not to buy it.

 

Bottom line:

 

1. invest in R lenses - they will work on any 4/3 rds with an adapter or a leica R (keep in mind mounting them on a 4/3rds camera body changes their perspective on focal length and DOF)

2. if you can wait till fall 2008 you'll probably and hopefully have some more choices from leica on camera bodies...

[FastFashnReloaded]

I'd like to get into a 4/3 system, and have been looking at the Oly 510 -- modern design, nice viewfinder, good features, light. I'd get the body only and some Leica lenses to go with it.

 

But --

 

it (and the new Panasonic L10, and the pro Oly E3 for that matter) have a 10mp sensor. The Digilux 3 and Panasonic L1 have a 7.5mp sensor. All are the same physical size (4/3).

 

In the Digilux 2 threads (I have one, and the Leica glow is why I want to go with Leica glass in 4/3), some people suggest that the exceptional IQ has to do with a large physical sensor size for its 5mp resolution.

 

The same logic suggests that a 7.5mp 4/3 sensor might have better IQ than a 10mp.

 

Your thoughts welcome.

 

Some shots with the E-510 at 1600 and 800 asa.

 

Savannah's 11th Birthday 3-8-2008 - a photoset on Flickr

 

I had an E-330 but the sensor went bad, and Oly sent me an E-510 to replace it.

[vikasmg]

I recently purchased an Olympus E3 for my wife and have been using it myself occasionally. With Olympus Lenses rather than Leica. I have to say that the E3 is one heck of a camera. I have no way of comparing it with a 510 but the quality of the image is first rate. Just a few quibbles.

 

1. I don't like the 4/3 proportion for photography and while it doesn't seem to bother my wife it does bother me and I find myself cropping most images.

 

2. In poor light the Autofocus system can sometimes go into a spin and not get into focus for a long time. I suspect though this may have to do with poor autofocus mode selection, something I haven't had time to look at in detail.

 

Other than that it's great. I'd still rather use my M8, but when I occasionally want an SLR, the E3 does a great job.

 

- Vikas

[Riley]

the announced and soon to be released E420 is said to have more DR and a weaker AA filter on a sensor that is different to any previous version.

 

you probably dont have more than 6 weeks or so to find out if that's true or not

[dugby]

 

The same logic suggests that a 7.5mp 4/3 sensor might have better IQ than a 10mp.

 

Your thoughts welcome.

 

Your conclusion is consistent with what I have read and expect when thinking about the L1 and L10.

 

 

I have both a D2 and L1. I really enjoy using both for their differences.

 

When I compare the L1 JPEGs they seem ok and not much better than those from the D2.

Which considering I paid some serious dollars to have an L1 just after it got released, to cover my photo requirements for when my D2 was in for the Sensor replacement. Didn't appear initially satisfying.

 

It's only when I process the L1 RAW images with Silkypix that they appear dramatically better than those from my D2.

 

I'm using the latest FW V2.0 and I really believe there is something wrong with the AWB of the L1. Which only gets rectified when using Silkypix

 

Now after 15 months of shooting both D2 and L1, I nearly always use the L1 as I get a lot more "keepers" with the L1 than I get with the D2.

 

I often miss a shot with the D2, but in similar circumstances with the L1, I nearly always nail the same shot.

 

However the IQ from the L1 is very very sharp and with much lower noise than those from the D2. You will not regret getting a D3/L1 if you can also keep and use your D2 for those times you need a silent shooter.

 

When you do the dimensions of the L1 sensor size, yes it is 4x that of the D2, which does explain the significant noise reduction achieved by the L1 over the D2.

[FastFashnReloaded]

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I recently purchased an Olympus E3 for my wife and have been using it myself occasionally. With Olympus Lenses rather than Leica. I have to say that the E3 is one heck of a camera. I have no way of comparing it with a 510 but the quality of the image is first rate. Just a few quibbles.

 

1. I don't like the 4/3 proportion for photography and while it doesn't seem to bother my wife it does bother me and I find myself cropping most images.

 

2. In poor light the Autofocus system can sometimes go into a spin and not get into focus for a long time. I suspect though this may have to do with poor autofocus mode selection, something I haven't had time to look at in detail.

 

Other than that it's great. I'd still rather use my M8, but when I occasionally want an SLR, the E3 does a great job.

 

- Vikas

 

Interesting... I really like the Four Thirds frame shape - and I really like to crop to a square image, so it works well for me. Also, if you take a file from a Evolt and want to resize (for printing) to 5x7, the original works out to just a bit over 5.y x 7, so you really don't lose and awful lot in the crop. 4x6 is different, but I don't really like 4x6.

 

AF... On the E-510 I've turned off all but the center point for AF. I think that's where the system falls down a bit - and hopefully the next rev of bodies will be better and more E-3 like. The low light and low contrast AF of the E-510 just isn't that good (my opinion). I think the E-500 low light and contrast AF is better. Again, my opinion - I haven't done a really thorough test.

 

I'd like to have an M also. Waiting on an M9 or M8.2...

[jdlaing]

 

Now after 15 months of shooting both D2 and L1, I nearly always use the L1 as I get a lot more "keepers" with the L1 than I get with the D2.

 

I often miss a shot with the D2, but in similar circumstances with the L1, I nearly always nail the same shot.

 

 

Me too.

[jrethorst]

In its glossary, DP Review says an advantage of fewer pixels for a given sensor size is lower noise and greater dynamic range. I wonder how much of those effects there are in the D3/L1's 7.5mp sensor compared to the 10mp sensor on most other 4/3 bodies.

[Bob Ross]

In its glossary, DP Review says an advantage of fewer pixels for a given sensor size is lower noise and greater dynamic range. I wonder how much of those effects there are in the D3/L1's 7.5mp sensor compared to the 10mp sensor on most other 4/3 bodies.

One of the things that is changing the simple idea that a larger pixel has greater DR and less noise is that the portion of the whole pixel dedicated to collecting photons (photo diode) is getting bigger and support circuits getting smaller. The photon collector on the E-3's 10MP sensor is supposed to be about the same size as those on the 7.5MP 4/3rds sensor. Couple this with more sophisticated processing and noise is reduced at higher ISOs.

What you will get with higher MP count is finer detail and the ability to print larger. What might be lost is the tonal and color gradations and a steeper detail fall off in the highlights, depending on how you meter the scene and how you process the image.

Bob

[Riley]

One of the things that is changing the simple idea that a larger pixel has greater DR and less noise is that the portion of the whole pixel dedicated to collecting photons (photo diode) is getting bigger and support circuits getting smaller. The photon collector on the E-3's 10MP sensor is supposed to be about the same size as those on the 7.5MP 4/3rds sensor. Couple this with more sophisticated processing and noise is reduced at higher ISOs.

What you will get with higher MP count is finer detail and the ability to print larger. What might be lost is the tonal and color gradations and a steeper detail fall off in the highlights, depending on how you meter the scene and how you process the image.

Bob

 

i can confirm that

Interview

this interview with Toshiyuki Terada, Product Planning Manager Olympus Tokyo

 

"The E-410 and 510 basically share the same sensor, at least on paper. However, it’s not quite as simple as that. First of all the sensor is at least 6 months more mature than the original. Also Mr. Terada promises that inside of the sensor has changed. . Also “the data pathway has been reconstructed to make it faster”, according to Mr. Pelkowski. Mr. Terada explained, “for example, the amplifier circuit inside of the camera is changed. This contributes to the sensor getting a wider dynamic range.”

As you see in the chart above the 10mp diagram shows that the actual light acceptor is larger than from the previous generation of sensors, which were found on the L1 and E-330. All in all the E-3 should have a greater dynamic range of the E-330, L-1, E-410, and E-510. (I do not have the data at this time to compare it with the E-1)"

[jrethorst]

_Very_ informative, Riley. Thank you.

[goodbokeh]

Well, maybe mate, but the Digilux 3 and L1 have more dynamic range than the E-330 according to the UK magazine Amateur Photographer. The E-330 has more dynamic range than the E410/510, so I need to see more information before I accept your assertion.

 

BTW, are those bugs affecting the memory card door, autofocus and defective firmware updates worked out on the E3 yet?

[Guest stnami]

But you are happy to accept Amateur Photographer's take?

[goodbokeh]

But you are happy to accept Amateur Photographer's take?

 

Well, I understand that they do have an anti 4/3rds bias but I don't think that would cook the numbers on the head to head test they did on the Digilix 3-L1-E330.

[Bob Ross]

Well, maybe mate, but the Digilux 3 and L1 have more dynamic range than the E-330 according to the UK magazine Amateur Photographer. The E-330 has more dynamic range than the E410/510, so I need to see more information before I accept your assertion.

 

BTW, are those bugs affecting the memory card door, autofocus and defective firmware updates worked out on the E3 yet?

Measuring Dynamic Range is like writing romance novels... Most of what you read about DR is just descriptive remarks about the curves. Have a bucket of salt ready while you read through them. The most important thing about DR is how much do you need or want in your images. Most cameras will deliver it and out perform printers and monitors.

Most of the bugs reported on the E-3 are the usual few out of a thousand. One (maybe two) door problems and the usual operator error things on the firmware (check the M8 firmware glitches for comparison). The AF system does need learning and like all AF systems, it does have some limits. Expecting an AF system to be perfect in all situations is a set up for disappointment. My E-3 works fine, as do most of them. It is a complex camera, very different from the M8, with its 1.5 menus, but still a good compliment to it. The image quality is very good in the real world.

Bob

[jrethorst]

Well, maybe mate, but the Digilux 3 and L1 have more dynamic range than the E-330 according to the UK magazine Amateur Photographer. The E-330 has more dynamic range than the E410/510, so I need to see more information before I accept your assertion.

 

Do you have a URL for that report? I searched but could not find it.

[goodbokeh]

Do you have a URL for that report? I searched but could not find it.

 

No, I have the magazine itself, dated February 10, 2007. On page 24 in the Dynamic Range box it reads:

 

"The Olympus E-330 has a more restricted dynamic range (6-61/2 EV) than the other two cameras on test. This means highlights will burn out around 1/2 EV before they do with the Digilux 3 and DMC-L1, and the shadows will block up approximately 1/2 EV earlier. As the dynamic range of the E-330 is not as extensive as it is with the other two cameras, the middle section of its curve is steeper and images have greater contrast"

[Riley]

No, I have the magazine itself, dated February 10, 2007. On page 24 in the Dynamic Range box it reads:

 

"The Olympus E-330 has a more restricted dynamic range (6-61/2 EV) than the other two cameras on test. This means highlights will burn out around 1/2 EV before they do with the Digilux 3 and DMC-L1, and the shadows will block up approximately 1/2 EV earlier. As the dynamic range of the E-330 is not as extensive as it is with the other two cameras, the middle section of its curve is steeper and images have greater contrast"

 

thats bunk, those cameras have the same sensor, different jpeg engines and different filter stack. In RAW there wouldnt be much difference

 

Olympus EVOLT E-330 Digital Camera Review - Oympus DSLR

 

The E-330's score at ISO 100, 7.79 at high quality and 10.6 at low quality, puts it below the middle of the pack for entry-level DSLRs. Its dynamic range drops significantly from ISO 100 to 400, where its performance is significantly below other DSLRs. Interestingly, it doesn't drop much further from ISO 400 to 1600, so, at its highest ISO, it's about average.

 

Panasonic Lumix DMC-L1 Digital Camera Review - Panasonic DSLR

 

The Panasonic L1's high quality range starts well, at over 7.7 EV at both 100 and 200 ISO. At ISO 400, it drops to 6.4, which is still solid. The steady decline at 800 and 1600 is not unusual, but it shows the L1's limitations. The low quality range follows the

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[jrethorst]

Thank you for the L1 dynamic range chart. For comparison, here is DigitalCameraInfo.com's chart for the Olympus 510 - substantially lower.

 

The noise charts for the L1 and 510 compare about the same, and the L1 review says "L1 clearly has an aggressive noise reduction algorith and it works, although it does smooth over some of the detail in the images."

 

IIRC discussion of the Leica Digilux 2 and Pana LC1 said one difference is that the Pana had more aggressive noise reduction. If that's true as well for the D3/L1, we might expect some very nice (high DR, low noise at low ISO but not "doctored") images from the D3.

 

Curiously, though, at least on this forum, I don't see as many compliments to the IQ of the D3 as the D2.

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