delander † Posted February 22, 2008 Share #81 Posted February 22, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) The bad service/quality problems cant be put down directly to Mr Lee. There were other individuals closer to the coal face who bear some responsibility here. I suspect the upgrade program was the final straw, dealers must have hated it, understandably so. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 22, 2008 Posted February 22, 2008 Hi delander †, Take a look here Steven K.Lee gone . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
leicar888 Posted February 22, 2008 Share #82 Posted February 22, 2008 Oh, my--if we could fire the fascists in the White House, Bush and Cheney, and all the shysters they associate with, with the identical ease with which Leica fired Lee, this country would be in much better shape. Until then, the Constitution will continue to be eroded, our monstrous deficit will continue to increase in size, existing court judges will continuously be replaced with fascistic judges, more White House scandals will be discovered, and the memory of the statement "I did not have sex with that woman!" will continue to pale in impact compared with the illegal doings of our current administration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
damien_demolder Posted February 22, 2008 Share #83 Posted February 22, 2008 You can the Amateur Photographer story here. Leica Camera sacks CEO Steven K Lee news - Amateur Photographer - news, camera reviews, lens reviews, camera equipment guides, photography courses, competitions, photography forums We broke the M8 full frame story after interviewing Lee at PMA. Damien Demolder Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cordell Posted February 22, 2008 Share #84 Posted February 22, 2008 Are you sure you are a new member? No, I bought my first one in November of '06 and the second one in February '07 when I had to send #1 in for a shutter error (they replaced the entire shutter). #2 developed a shutter problem (sounded like it wouldn't stop firing) in May '07. And I had (still have but haven't used lately) an M6 before, and an M3 way back when. So I've been around since the beginning. Or did you mean specifically this forum? A guy named Justin Staley who works for Leica and I met at a workshop told me about this forum when I asked if there were any good sources of info/learning/sharing on the internet. He said that in-between the bickering and infantile personality conflicts universal to internet forums, there was a lot of good stuff to be found here. So I read silently for a while and I agree. I especially was impressed with Sandymc and his contribution of Cornerfix, and the guys John and Tim with their adaptors and grips. I was galled by someone taking on the role of Leica spokesperson then flying into a spitting rage any time someone criticizes Leica, if that's what you're refering to with your quote. As a businessman fighting to make a profit in this economy just like Leica, I would tell the guy to put a muzzle on or cut him loose. The old saying "with friends like that who need enemies" fits. Best, Cordell McIntyre KY USA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemalk Posted February 22, 2008 Share #85 Posted February 22, 2008 They were not all bad. I have had two - a Digilux 1 - dreadful but luckily a kind thief removed it from me after just one and a half months. Digilux 2 pretty good apart from dying twice in the first year and I sold the second new replacement on eBay. I bought my wife a CLux on the strength of my D2. It is a horrible little camera with the noisiest sensor I have ever seen. I assume the D3 has been a disaster, In the year and a half they have been out, I have yet to see one in a customer's hands. Wilson Hi Wilson, The Panaleicas I have experience with are the LC1 (which thankfully has avoided the dead Sony sensor issue), the D-Lux 3 which is a great compact and the Digilux 3, which again is a versatile and unique DSLR. I can't vouch for the really low-end gear that Panasonic puts out, but their mid to high-end stuff is pretty phenomenal. And I'm not trying to be an apologist. The truth is that those "horrible little cameras" mainlined me into film Leica gear and a possible M8. I just hope the relationship between Leica and Panasonic continues even after Lee's departure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandymc Posted February 22, 2008 Share #86 Posted February 22, 2008 Sandy I see this as a personality issue far more than any work in progress issue. Guy, well, to quote from the AP story, which supposedly quotes David Bell "One of the first tasks for Dr Kaufmann will be to positively review all options for the M system's future. There will be more details in the following weeks." Sounds like changes in policy to me..... Sandy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 22, 2008 Share #87 Posted February 22, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) One of the first tasks for Dr Kaufmann will be to positively review all options for the M system's future. 1. Abandon the M8 and reboot with a M9. 2. Upgrade the M8 perpetually (now seems unlikely). 3. Kill the M system and start from scratch. "Pick your poison". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviskennedy Posted February 22, 2008 Share #88 Posted February 22, 2008 The board and management of Leica have been in shambles for quite some time now. No company moves forward without stability. All of this talk about R10 and M9 is silly. Nothing will progress until management stabilizes, forward looking plans can be developed and clear actions can be implemented. This doesn't happen in only a few months. New programs should be put on hold until current programs are fixed. Get QA under control. Get repair turnaround time down. You could be making lots of money if you could produce the popular lenses in larger quantities. Maybe your dealers are happy in the short term since they can jack up prices on hard to get items - but you lose more customers than you gain with this tactic. Figure out how and when to use dealers and when to go directly to customers. Keep customers informed of real changes - no more marketing fluff regarding "the future" that Mr. Lee enjoyed spewing. Save the marketing puffery for lens and camera brochures. Instead of this cloak and dagger of "hinting" at changes or "suggesting" things like FF. Tell the customers the truth. We'll all know soon enough and if your "hints" and "suggestions" lead some customers to make poor decisions they will punish you for it. One more thing; if the dealer network had any influence on the board of Leica regarding Lee's departure then Leica won't be long in business. In the new millennium it's the customer that matters - not the dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2008 Share #89 Posted February 22, 2008 In the new millennium it's the customer that matters - not the dealer. But from Leica's perspective the dealers _are_ the customers. From the dealer's point of view the last thing they want are _their_ customers having issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pklein Posted February 22, 2008 Share #90 Posted February 22, 2008 As announced, the upgrade program was a bewildering morass of interconnected permutations. How did a full-frame sensor and the quieter/slower shutter fit into the mix? On new cameras? On upgraded cameras? How far could an M8 be upgraded in the direction of the still-vaporware M9? It was as confusing as the user interface on most Japanese DSLRS! All this needs to be clarified. Along with whether Leica has recalibrated its QC and lens adjustment procedure to match the more exacting M8 standards. The good news is that your M8 will take great pictures today, just as it did yesterday. --Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviskennedy Posted February 22, 2008 Share #91 Posted February 22, 2008 Steve: If your statement is true - that Leica considers dealers as their customers - that would explain most of their troubles. If, instead of making a product that end users enjoy at a fair price, Leica makes sure the profit margin is big enough for the dealer - only the dealers win. Leica loses customers, customers sour on Leica. Overnight shipping and the internet have changed everything in retail and wholesale. No longer can manufacturers and dealers hide behind 'manufacturers advertised pricing'. Customers are too smart for that and the information highway has ripped the cloak off of that scam. Dealers are not needed for information about products and my experience is that web sites like this forum are wildly more accurate then what I've heard from dealers when it comes to specs and other data (and usually with a lot less of the snobbish attitude). The days of the middle man are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Leica needs to get on board the new ship or sail into the sunset. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 22, 2008 Share #92 Posted February 22, 2008 The days of the middle man are quickly becoming a thing of the past. Leica needs to get on board the new ship or sail into the sunset. Direct selling may be fine for low cost items, but I'm not convinced that it's applicable for low volume, high cost, luxury items. I'm prepared to be proved wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cordell Posted February 22, 2008 Share #93 Posted February 22, 2008 Direct selling may be fine for low cost items, but I'm not convinced that it's applicable for low volume, high cost, luxury items. I'm prepared to be proved wrong. Glad to hear that. A number of boutique watch brands have been doing that and have been quite successful (Doxa--at least in the US, and Kobold are two that come immediately to mind). It is definitely not the norm and I don't expect to see Patek or Audemars do it anytime soon, let alone Rolex, nor do I forsee jewelry shops going the way of camera shops. The key to a successful direct-sales-only operation in high-end luxury goods are a customer base that buys on faith and doesn't need to "fondle" the goods in-person to close the sale. Leica very clearly qualifies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elviskennedy Posted February 22, 2008 Share #94 Posted February 22, 2008 Not necessarily direct selling (although that wouldn't hurt) - just stop letting the angst of making dealers happy cloud your better judgment. The gallery-type Leica shops of New York, Paris and London may be fine for people who live near those cities but for the vast majority of people those shops are meaningless. Having to buy from these dealers who need to cover their high rent just doesn't make sense for someone from the American midwest (and 99+% of the rest of the planet). The camera shops around here; 1) don't carry Leica, 2) if they do, stock is minimal, and/or 3) they know less about Leica products than most would-be buyers do. So where is the value to Leica or me? If the current dealers are mad because the free lens thing on early M8's didn't result in unearned profit for them - too bad. If Leica wants to upgrade M8's with end users dealing directly with Leica that's fine. Again, the dealer would just be making an unearned profit while offering nothing of value if they were in the middle. If Leica could gain a larger customer base by reducing the profit margin to dealers - do it. There will always be someone around to take the money. Maybe not a fancy "Shop Within a Shop" (whatever that is), but who needs that anyway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elansprint72 Posted February 22, 2008 Share #95 Posted February 22, 2008 ........... I was galled by someone taking on the role of Leica spokesperson then flying into a spitting rage any time someone criticizes Leica, if that's what you're refering to with your quote. As a businessman fighting to make a profit in this economy just like Leica, I would tell the guy to put a muzzle on or cut him loose. The old saying "with friends like that who need enemies" fits. Best, Cordell McIntyre KY USA Welcome on board Cordell, you will have noticed that we have our share of false-prophets, pseudo-spokesmen, pompous windbags and self-promoters here. Good to hear the voice of reason once in a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasimir Posted February 22, 2008 Share #96 Posted February 22, 2008 Glad to hear that. A number of boutique watch brands have been doing that and have been quite successful (Doxa--at least in the US, and Kobold are two that come immediately to mind). It is definitely not the norm and I don't expect to see Patek or Audemars do it anytime soon, let alone Rolex, nor do I forsee jewelry shops going the way of camera shops. The key to a successful direct-sales-only operation in high-end luxury goods are a customer base that buys on faith and doesn't need to "fondle" the goods in-person to close the sale. Leica very clearly qualifies. I see that expensive watches and cameras have something in common as a symbol of your wealth and maybe taste. But I don't know if You can really compare cameras to watches. To enjoy a Rolex you need nothing but money and at least one arm - to enjoy a Camera - especially a Leica - you need two arms and have to develop your skills. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwfreund Posted February 22, 2008 Share #97 Posted February 22, 2008 Oh, my--if we could fire the fascists in the White House, Bush and Cheney, and all the shysters they associate with, with the identical ease with which Leica fired Lee, this country would be in much better shape. Until then, the Constitution will continue to be eroded, our monstrous deficit will continue to increase in size, existing court judges will continuously be replaced with fascistic judges, more White House scandals will be discovered, and the memory of the statement "I did not have sex with that woman!" will continue to pale in impact compared with the illegal doings of our current administration. TROLL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted February 22, 2008 Share #98 Posted February 22, 2008 to enjoy a Camera - especially a Leica - you need two arms and have to develop your skills. But again, what does a dealer have to with this? If Lee chose to offer the lenses to dealers, I'm sure they'll gladly take 20% and leave you the rest 10% or even less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest maddin Posted February 22, 2008 Share #99 Posted February 22, 2008 dancing on the street, dancing on the street...totally biased but wtf cares Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Robert Belasario Posted February 22, 2008 Share #100 Posted February 22, 2008 Check out the shareprice over the past 12 months, this in combination with the other facts already mentioned here.... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/46044-steven-klee-gone/?do=findComment&comment=490140'>More sharing options...
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